Smart meters & Economy 7

GibbsRule_No3.

Are they only all compliant recently?  During Covid they wanted to change the meter, I even got to a time and date arranged and then mentioned I had E7 and they said they did not have any of those available or an engineer trained to do it at the time.  

They now say they must change the meter due to the age of the current one.

Swipe

GibbsRule_No3. said:

EDF want to change mine and I have E7 with night storage heaters, not looking forward to them changing it.  Before they do I will insist they tell me the new meter will be E7 compliant and I will record the conversation. I have one old fashioned meter with Rate 1 and Rate 2 at present and a Solar Panel box to confuse them even more, no doubt.  At this time of year the E7 stays on until 10 am, very handy for warming the house on the cheap rate 6.30 - 10.00 is plenty of time to heat a NSH and the large water tank. Not really looking forward to the normal 12am - 07.00 times for E7.

As your off peak drift has gone in your favour I'd do your best to avoid a smart meter. Just ignore all their communications and then if they do get around to making an appointment, when they call you a few days beforehand, press the button for the option to say you can't make it.

When the installation does take place, make sure they are fitting a 5 port terminal meter. As far as I'm aware Morrissons Data Services who install on behalf of EDF only use the 5 port terminals for E7 with separate off peak circuits, or at least that's what I was told by my installer. A 4 port smart meter with an external contactor is just an extra variable to go wrong. Also worth testing a storage heater while on peak rate before the installer leaves to make sure it's not live. Then you'll need to either stay up late or get up early to note the exact time the peak/off peak switch over takes place.

catherinemeade

Scot_39 said:

Can you take a photo of your meter cabinet - and possibly your consumer units - particularly if can see the main incoming feed wires from meter cabinet.

Edit Don't forget to redact serial numbers etc if prsent

I am assuming everything worked OK before - can you remember how it was configured before ( sorry - thats a tough ask for someone unfamiliar with meter / wiring etc). 1 or 2 meters etc and tariff.

In a conventional old NSH / Immersion system - these were sometimes completely seperated - into 24/7 live and  time switched load circuits for NSH and immersion - often two seperate meters feeding two different consumer units (fuse boxes in old speak).

I used to have 2 meters, 2 mpans, 2 standing charges. 

Those were replaced by 1 meter - 5 terminal / digital - with it's own internal load switching.  The switched live from that meter then fed water and nsh combined.

That was replaced not long after with a 4 terminal Smart - with an external contactor box - for the off peak load switching.

One post I read moons ago - suggested if e.g. an E7 smart meter was remotely switched to single rate - the switched output would default to go live. So that implies rate registers and actual switching controlled by remotely set paramaters - same / different ?.

So by implication any user requesting that, could / would have to fit their own high load switching timer switches - if only wanted old E7 wiring devices on for a restricted time.

Not obviously the standard plug domestic ones - a large NSH or immersion - say upto 3.3/ 3.4 kWh needs I guess a 16A resistive hard wired (permantly connected / "spur" ) version.  These devices aren't expensive - a quick google came up with Greenbook ones from national chain for c£13 inc VAT - am sure there are loads of others available - and wouldn't take long for a competent electrician to check out cricuits and fit - if meter doesn't get resolved.

The op might want to think of that in the meantime anyway - as staying up to say 1:30 or getting up to switch off before 7:30 in winter etc  - seems like a pain - if on fixed GMT 00:30 - 07:30 for instance.

If the meter is registering peak and off-peak correctly - assuming the op has checked this - is the load switching control seperate time setpoints (seems unnecessary and only likely to lead to problems) ?

Is the meter itself faulty ?

Has the electrical installation been modified - so as the 24/7 live - just feeds everything in the house - seems unlikey as operating OK before ?

When the E7 meter fitter arrived at an install did he only hook up the live feed to everything ?

All unknowns

(Everything beyond the meter cabinet - upto the OP's own electrician to resolve / provide - the usual disclaimer - which is back to potential timer switches everywhere needed and getting own wiring checked etc)

Has the OP actually had own electrician out to see whats happening at least as far as the consumer unit feed from the meter cabinet - and had a look inside - if the "fault" due to wiring external to the meter - it might be clear just on visual inspection - even if he/she isn't allowed to fix it.

PS Assuming the 8 weeks is re the time from raising a formal complaint (not the same as just getting irate with an operator - but actually registering verbally or in writing as a complaint - they can raise it on the phone if asked) - that is via the Ombudsman - not Ofgem.

But if the supplier has said from their end - they think the meter is set-up correctly - it may be down to you to prove it isn't - so again may need to get a normal domestic electrician to check it out.

Who does the OP contact to get the actual meter installation re-checked - supplier, network operator in region etc ?

If they have then issued a deadlock letter - you don't even have to wait the 8 weeks iirc - and can go straight to Ombudsman.

MattMattMattUK said:

GibbsRule_No3. said:

EDF want to change mine and I have E7 with night storage heaters, not looking forward to them changing it.  Before they do I will insist they tell me the new meter will be E7 compliant and I will record the conversation. I have one old fashioned meter with Rate 1 and Rate 2 at present and a Solar Panel box to confuse them even more, no doubt.  At this time of year the E7 stays on until 10 am, very handy for warming the house on the cheap rate 6.30 - 10.00 is plenty of time to heat a NSH and the large water tank. Not really looking forward to the normal 12am - 07.00 times for E7.

All smart meters are "E7 compliant", they have multiple registers and all function for E7 tariffs, the issue is where people have a separate off-peak circuit in their house which as Gerry mentions above requires a five terminal meter. Those without an off-peak circuit can still use E7 and the devices will operate on timers which is what most modern installations do. 

catherinemeade

Also my husband was asked to turn off both E7 and standard electric meters whilst he was here so yes he knew we had E7

Swipe

catherinemeade said:

MattMattMattUK said:

That looks like a 5 port/terminal smart meter to me so not sure what they have done to mess it up. I suppose it could be a config issue rather than a physical one.

Scot_39

The sad lesson here is it isn't just the tariff - but the meter installation and operation of E7 loads.

You can have an e7 meter, billing on e7 rates for the whole house without any seperate switched e7 circuits from meter cabinet. 

If you want timed use, in that case, the devices themselves then require to be fed through timers as discussed above - think seen that in modern flats recently, with only immersion timed, and panel heaters.  Didn't stay to find out, the panels put me and so my neice who was buying off.

Whereas in perhaps older systems, no timers at all , the switched circuits need to be seperately wired into the meter cabinet and switched by the meter or a meter controlled contactor.

You would have hoped a meter installer would have been aware of the differences, see the seperate feeds and install and test correctly.
I am not sure, but would have thought they would have installer mode ways of forcing meter into both modes to test.

The OPs experience - suggests worryingly NOT.

I don't want to worry anyone unduly, but my first meter change took 3 visits - but that was more complex than most.

I would have hoped an old e7 to e7 smart - especially if have a 1 meter solution already - would be far more straight forward though.


Too younger engineers looked at my old heatwise, phoned base and left saying another visit would be arranged.  Glad they had the sense to do that, rather than blunder along and maybe get it wrong.
This again prompted calls to EOn's dedicated complex metering team to seek reassurances it could be done - they were great - all seemed to have some electrical training or background.
Normal support staff - often didn't even understand the concept of seperate home wiring for off peak devices.  E7 or E10 was just a tariff to them.
The third senior engineer, I suspect tied to that complex team, came from c30 miles away i think he said, looked at the old system, and said, yep standard heatwise, explained the problem with hot water boost, asked if ok to proceed and spent c40 mins reconfiguring everything.  This took two seperate feeds from the old second radio heatwise meter to consumer unit for timed switched hot water and timed switched NSH feeds - and tied them to new meter single switched load circuit.  Most old e7 etc will I suspect only have 1 switched feed.

Same guy did my neighbour that day, saw him back at another on close following week.

That digital e10 meter with internal load switching was then replaced with a smart meter - configured for e10 - with an external load switching contactor.

After both the changes I checked a few times the rate were registering the correct charges / usage - easier with afternoon / evening off peak slots than doing in wee small hours of night with E7.

Even phoned to check billing properly at right rates -  asked for a bill after few weeks as at time for digital as on a 6m paper billing schedule to confirm - I had already checked verbally - but wanted the paper record. 
Smart they could read daily readings back - and was on monthly email billing - so less time for any error.

Sadly not all smart meters store the peak and off peak rates in the same order - and not all suppliers then get it right - especially after switching suppliers. 
There has been a spate of this at times in the past - and probably more so recently with millions being moved to other suppliers used to their own conventions.
There were cases in Liverpool area ages ago - on another special regional legacy electric nsh type tariff - and some hadn't checked - so for some errors persisted for years- in suppliers favour, costing customers £100s even at old rates..

That may all sound overly complex, but in summary ...

1) If your off peak devices don't have individual timers curently - they are I would suggest reliant on meter load switching. 

2) dont be afraid to ask for explaination how the new meter will replicate old.
[I would have thought that not necessary, but....
The new meter wiring has to do same as old, both tariff wise and circuit wise, unless willing to change house wiring, fit own timers etc.
Those who's analogue clocks have timed slip will of course end up back at proper times.]

3) Once meter in and operating check which registers on smart are registering peak and off peak - some fitters put a label on them at install time - they didn't on mine. 

4) Check as soon as possible the right registers are being applied to right peak off peak tariff unit rates on bills.

Sounds all a bit paranoid I know, but...

Scot_39

GibbsRule_No3. said:

Are they only all compliant recently?  During Covid they wanted to change the meter, I even got to a time and date arranged and then mentioned I had E7 and they said they did not have any of those available or an engineer trained to do it at the time.  

They now say they must change the meter due to the age of the current one.

The elegant solution is as @Gerry1,  a meter with internal load switching, to replace old on a system reliant on meter based load switching - so things like immersion and nsh without timers - so they only operate off peak.

The alternative is one able to control an external load switching relay.

It is possible they had neither in stock, but suspect manning may have been the real problem.

In some regions people been waiting weeks if not months of late.

On the bright side late take up, especially if that while back,  means you hopefully miss out on the whole old smets1 debacle.  Where smart turned dumb after a supplier move.

Scot_39

@catherinemeade

Any chance of a piccy of the wider cabinet area.

And of that second block on the edge with live connections.

The first block - taking in the grey N taped meter output - often referred to as a henley block - looks to be splitting it to feed two neutrals to consumer units.

That second block - next to the henley block for the neutral output actually appears to have both normal and time switched live feed feeding it -  but cannot see the outputs or where the outputs go.

There should be other blocks - isolator switches or even more if long run to internal consumer units.

I'm looking on phone rightnow but will have a look later at-home too.

The grey L taped and brown L taped - both I believe coming from the meter. 

On my meter  the brown would be the load switched output  i.e. . Time restricted live for e7 switched  - from the  front terminal. 

That and only that switched live feed should I believe be feeding your e7 circuits if they have no timers.

And if all working before without timers -  probably the equivalent would have been.

If that's is also a simple tail split / connection block, and thats then only thing feeding your consumer units  ( one or two or split ?), that could explain your problem.

I'm not a domestic electrician or meter cabinet expert, but have electrical engineering background.

Others who were or were more familiar with meter cabinets replied in a previous thread about meter cabinet contents.

Might be worth a try to attract them with an @ name to look at new piccys too.  If you can  post a couple more. 

They might be able to comment with more authority.

EssexHebridean

catherinemeade said:

Also my husband was asked to turn off both E7 and standard electric meters whilst he was here so yes he knew we had E7

Did you previously have a two-meter setup? 

dealyboy

@dunstonh ...

dunstonh said:

having a faulty meter can be handy when it's in your favour.   It's why I haven't switched over but its the only reason.

I have a neighbour who refuses to have a smart meter or even consider E7. I've told her about EDF Eastern and the benefits of a smart meter, but no ... stuck in her ways I thought ... and then she told me.

'My meter stops in cold weather.'