Smart meters & Economy 7

catherinemeade

Since having smart meter installed my E7 storage heaters and water heater stay on all day. I can only control each heater by going round and individually turning them on and off as near the E7 tarriff times EVERY SINGLE DAY. Have sent 20+ emails and telephoned Bulb/octopus numerous times and all they say is it’s fine our end. 

Well it’s clearly not at my end as I can’t control my heating!!!! How do you make these people understand? Have contacted ofgem but have to wait until I give them 8 weeks to rectify.
We have been in this house 30 years without any storage heater/water heater problems- now we have no control whatsoever. 

Angry and frustrated 😤

Gerry1

Welcome to the forum.

You need a 5-terminal smart meter (two fat wires in, three fat wires out).

If they're unavailable, tell them to replace it with a conventional 5-terminal meter.

BTW, you'd need to go to the Ombudsman, not Ofgem.

Scot_39

Can you take a photo of your meter cabinet - and possibly your consumer units - particularly if can see the main incoming feed wires from meter cabinet.

Edit Don't forget to redact serial numbers etc if prsent

I am assuming everything worked OK before - can you remember how it was configured before ( sorry - thats a tough ask for someone unfamiliar with meter / wiring etc). 1 or 2 meters etc and tariff.

In a conventional old NSH / Immersion system - these were sometimes completely seperated - into 24/7 live and  time switched load circuits for NSH and immersion - often two seperate meters feeding two different consumer units (fuse boxes in old speak).

I used to have 2 meters, 2 mpans, 2 standing charges. 

Those were replaced by 1 meter - 5 terminal / digital - with it's own internal load switching.  The switched live from that meter then fed water and nsh combined.

That was replaced not long after with a 4 terminal Smart - with an external contactor box - for the off peak load switching.

One post I read moons ago - suggested if e.g. an E7 smart meter was remotely switched to single rate - the switched output would default to go live. So that implies rate registers and actual switching controlled by remotely set paramaters - same / different ?.

So by implication any user requesting that, could / would have to fit their own high load switching timer switches - if only wanted old E7 wiring devices on for a restricted time.

Not obviously the standard plug domestic ones - a large NSH or immersion - say upto 3.3/ 3.4 kWh needs I guess a 16A resistive hard wired (permantly connected / "spur" ) version.  These devices aren't expensive - a quick google came up with Greenbook ones from national chain for c£13 inc VAT - am sure there are loads of others available - and wouldn't take long for a competent electrician to check out cricuits and fit - if meter doesn't get resolved.

The op might want to think of that in the meantime anyway - as staying up to say 1:30 or getting up to switch off before 7:30 in winter etc  - seems like a pain - if on fixed GMT 00:30 - 07:30 for instance.

If the meter is registering peak and off-peak correctly - assuming the op has checked this - is the load switching control seperate time setpoints (seems unnecessary and only likely to lead to problems) ?

Is the meter itself faulty ?

Has the electrical installation been modified - so as the 24/7 live - just feeds everything in the house - seems unlikey as operating OK before ?

When the E7 meter fitter arrived at an install did he only hook up the live feed to everything ?

All unknowns

(Everything beyond the meter cabinet - upto the OP's own electrician to resolve / provide - the usual disclaimer - which is back to potential timer switches everywhere needed and getting own wiring checked etc)

Has the OP actually had own electrician out to see whats happening at least as far as the consumer unit feed from the meter cabinet - and had a look inside - if the "fault" due to wiring external to the meter - it might be clear just on visual inspection - even if he/she isn't allowed to fix it.

PS Assuming the 8 weeks is re the time from raising a formal complaint (not the same as just getting irate with an operator - but actually registering verbally or in writing as a complaint - they can raise it on the phone if asked) - that is via the Ombudsman - not Ofgem.

But if the supplier has said from their end - they think the meter is set-up correctly - it may be down to you to prove it isn't - so again may need to get a normal domestic electrician to check it out.

Who does the OP contact to get the actual meter installation re-checked - supplier, network operator in region etc ?

If they have then issued a deadlock letter - you don't even have to wait the 8 weeks iirc - and can go straight to Ombudsman.

Scot_39

Gerry1 said:

Welcome to the forum.

You need a 5-terminal smart meter (two fat wires in, three fat wires out).

If they're unavailable, tell them to replace it with a conventional 5-terminal meter.

BTW, you'd need to go to the Ombudsman, not Ofgem.

Strictly you don't need a five terminal meter - it's just a cleaner 1 box solution.

Mines isn't - it uses an external 100A load switching contactor - controlled by the meter.

catherinemeade

Thankyou for your time taken to comment. You have given us more ideas to look into. The ombudsman site doesn’t take complaints until after 8 weeks since complaint made to energy company. 

We will persist with your ideas. 

My neighbour in the same type of house had a smart meter fitted without the expense of having to fit extra timers on devices so it is possible to do successfully. Whether we will still be sane by this time is debatable. 
In retrospect I wish we had never agreed to have a smart meter fitted with the total disruption the energy company has caused by disconnecting our E7 devices from the system.

dunstonh

Smart meters should be able to handle the circuit switching method.   

In retrospect I wish we had never agreed to have a smart meter fitted with the total disruption the energy company has caused by disconnecting our E7 devices from the system.

Its not so much the smart meter that is the problem.  It is the person that fitted it.   However, I understand your frustration.

EssexHebridean

catherinemeade said:

Thankyou for your time taken to comment. You have given us more ideas to look into. The ombudsman site doesn’t take complaints until after 8 weeks since complaint made to energy company. 

We will persist with your ideas. 

My neighbour in the same type of house had a smart meter fitted without the expense of having to fit extra timers on devices so it is possible to do successfully. Whether we will still be sane by this time is debatable. 
In retrospect I wish we had never agreed to have a smart meter fitted with the total disruption the energy company has caused by disconnecting our E7 devices from the system.

Make a note of the date you initially raised the complaint - and a note of when the 8 weeks is up so you know when you can escalate. 

Once the situation is sorted out in terms of the actual meter you are likely to need bills reworked to take account of the increased use you have presumably been incurring at peak rate. 

The advice previously to show us a photo of the meter (with serial numbers blanked out) is good - try to make sure it shows the area immediately around the meter as well so we can see where the cables leaving it go - if there are little tags on the cables with codes on then a closer in photo of the cables might also be helpful.

As Gerry said - the ideal solution for an E7 Smart Meter fit is a 5 terminal meter - this is probably what you had before. The alternative is the 4 terminal meter with additional switched contactor which cuts the E7 circuit in and out at the relevant times. Can you recall, was there any discussion with the person who fitted the new meter about you being on Economy 7? 

Just a further note - if the issues you have had with Bulb/Octopus make you feel you want to change supplier - don't under any circumstances be tempted to British Gas as they currently have issues with Smart Metering and complex meters as I understand it! 

GibbsRule_No3.

EDF want to change mine and I have E7 with night storage heaters, not looking forward to them changing it.  Before they do I will insist they tell me the new meter will be E7 compliant and I will record the conversation. I have one old fashioned meter with Rate 1 and Rate 2 at present and a Solar Panel box to confuse them even more, no doubt.  At this time of year the E7 stays on until 10 am, very handy for warming the house on the cheap rate 6.30 - 10.00 is plenty of time to heat a NSH and the large water tank. Not really looking forward to the normal 12am - 07.00 times for E7.

MattMattMattUK

GibbsRule_No3. said:

EDF want to change mine and I have E7 with night storage heaters, not looking forward to them changing it.  Before they do I will insist they tell me the new meter will be E7 compliant and I will record the conversation. I have one old fashioned meter with Rate 1 and Rate 2 at present and a Solar Panel box to confuse them even more, no doubt.  At this time of year the E7 stays on until 10 am, very handy for warming the house on the cheap rate 6.30 - 10.00 is plenty of time to heat a NSH and the large water tank. Not really looking forward to the normal 12am - 07.00 times for E7.

All smart meters are "E7 compliant", they have multiple registers and all function for E7 tariffs, the issue is where people have a separate off-peak circuit in their house which as Gerry mentions above requires a five terminal meter. Those without an off-peak circuit can still use E7 and the devices will operate on timers which is what most modern installations do. 

dunstonh

Before they do I will insist they tell me the new meter will be E7 compliant and I will record the conversation.

All meters are E7 compliant.   

 I have one old fashioned meter with Rate 1 and Rate 2 at present and a Solar Panel box to confuse them even more, no doubt.  

Not a problem. Indeed, the options improve with a smart meter if you have solar/batteries.

 At this time of year the E7 stays on until 10 am, very handy for warming the house on the cheap rate 6.30 - 10.00 is plenty of time to heat a NSH and the large water tank. Not really looking forward to the normal 12am - 07.00 times for E7.

having a faulty meter can be handy when it's in your favour.   It's why I haven't switched over but its the only reason.

catherinemeade

Scot_39 said:

Can you take a photo of your meter cabinet - and possibly your consumer units - particularly if can see the main incoming feed wires from meter cabinet.

Edit Don't forget to redact serial numbers etc if prsent

I am assuming everything worked OK before - can you remember how it was configured before ( sorry - thats a tough ask for someone unfamiliar with meter / wiring etc). 1 or 2 meters etc and tariff.

In a conventional old NSH / Immersion system - these were sometimes completely seperated - into 24/7 live and  time switched load circuits for NSH and immersion - often two seperate meters feeding two different consumer units (fuse boxes in old speak).

I used to have 2 meters, 2 mpans, 2 standing charges. 

Those were replaced by 1 meter - 5 terminal / digital - with it's own internal load switching.  The switched live from that meter then fed water and nsh combined.

That was replaced not long after with a 4 terminal Smart - with an external contactor box - for the off peak load switching.

One post I read moons ago - suggested if e.g. an E7 smart meter was remotely switched to single rate - the switched output would default to go live. So that implies rate registers and actual switching controlled by remotely set paramaters - same / different ?.

So by implication any user requesting that, could / would have to fit their own high load switching timer switches - if only wanted old E7 wiring devices on for a restricted time.

Not obviously the standard plug domestic ones - a large NSH or immersion - say upto 3.3/ 3.4 kWh needs I guess a 16A resistive hard wired (permantly connected / "spur" ) version.  These devices aren't expensive - a quick google came up with Greenbook ones from national chain for c£13 inc VAT - am sure there are loads of others available - and wouldn't take long for a competent electrician to check out cricuits and fit - if meter doesn't get resolved.

The op might want to think of that in the meantime anyway - as staying up to say 1:30 or getting up to switch off before 7:30 in winter etc  - seems like a pain - if on fixed GMT 00:30 - 07:30 for instance.

If the meter is registering peak and off-peak correctly - assuming the op has checked this - is the load switching control seperate time setpoints (seems unnecessary and only likely to lead to problems) ?

Is the meter itself faulty ?

Has the electrical installation been modified - so as the 24/7 live - just feeds everything in the house - seems unlikey as operating OK before ?

When the E7 meter fitter arrived at an install did he only hook up the live feed to everything ?

All unknowns

(Everything beyond the meter cabinet - upto the OP's own electrician to resolve / provide - the usual disclaimer - which is back to potential timer switches everywhere needed and getting own wiring checked etc)

Has the OP actually had own electrician out to see whats happening at least as far as the consumer unit feed from the meter cabinet - and had a look inside - if the "fault" due to wiring external to the meter - it might be clear just on visual inspection - even if he/she isn't allowed to fix it.

PS Assuming the 8 weeks is re the time from raising a formal complaint (not the same as just getting irate with an operator - but actually registering verbally or in writing as a complaint - they can raise it on the phone if asked) - that is via the Ombudsman - not Ofgem.

But if the supplier has said from their end - they think the meter is set-up correctly - it may be down to you to prove it isn't - so again may need to get a normal domestic electrician to check it out.

Who does the OP contact to get the actual meter installation re-checked - supplier, network operator in region etc ?

If they have then issued a deadlock letter - you don't even have to wait the 8 weeks iirc - and can go straight to Ombudsman.

Here is a picture of the meter.