Second of two claims from Excel - Now at WS stage

HamzaM21

Coupon-mad said:

No, you can't pay it then sue for it back.

What do you mean by this:

"I do have another case with them, one which I have also paid, but I submitted my defence for that via money claim."

Paid what?

B789 said:

HamzaM21 said:
It looks as though I will have to make one last attempt at bargaining and getting the fee reduced as £150 is still extortion for an incident that did not occur. If I pay it then my credit record wont be impacted and this stress can go away. 

I don't understand your logic. How can you bargain to get the CCJ sum reduced to £150? If you are going to pay the CCJ, then you have to pay the full amount. You are beyond any point where you can negotiate.

 I do have another case with them, one which I have also paid, but I submitted my defence for that via money claim.

Again, you are not making much sense... are you saying you paid the charge and you have submitted a defence through MCOL?

You will have to explain a bit more clearly what is going on. You say you now have a second claim, you've done your AoS and you've submitted a defence through the MCOL website (groan). When did you get the second claim? What was the issue date of that claim. When did you submit your defence on the MCOL website (groan again).

Can you show us your defence? Is the second claim for the same reason as the first one and the same location?

Responding to @coupon-mad - I've paid the parking fee for which I received the PCN for not parking with valid ticket/permit i.e. the £2.70 paid to the parking company for when I parked my car at the car park on the date of the alleged contravention. 

Responding to @B789 - 

'I don't understand your logic. How can you bargain to get the CCJ sum reduced to £150? If you are going to pay the CCJ, then you have to pay the full amount. You are beyond any point where you can negotiate.' 

I called the solicitors in charge of handling the CCJ payment and through discussions with them, they have gone back to the claimant - Excel Parking Services - who have agreed to lower my CCJ payment from £277 to £150, which they will accept and will clear the CCJ off my file (email confirmation has been received of this amount being agreed). The legal firm have set the original CCJ and they are the ones who set the fee demanded and they have agreed to lower it after pleading with them. 

'Again, you are not making much sense... are you saying you paid the charge and you have submitted a defence through MCOL?

You will have to explain a bit more clearly what is going on. You say you now have a second claim, you've done your AoS and you've submitted a defence through the MCOL website (groan). When did you get the second claim? What was the issue date of that claim. When did you submit your defence on the MCOL website (groan again).

Can you show us your defence? Is the second claim for the same reason as the first one and the same location?' 

I have paid the parking charge i.e. the amount to pay for when you park at the car park - £2.70 as mentioned above. I received an N1 form for that as well and submitted a defence via MCOL explaining my defence against the particulars of claim. This defence was submitted on 19/02/2023. The second claim is in relation to another PCN that I received via post on 16/06/2022 (issue date) for a contravention on my main car {nissan} that occurred on 14/06/2022. The PCN claimed I did not pay for the parking session on that date and I breached the T&C's. Again same reason as the first and same location (Copeland Street, Derby) (sigh).  

My defence was as follows (personal information redacted):

'The claim (as per the CCJ ‘Particulars of Claim’) is in relation to ‘a breach of contract for breaching the terms and conditions set on private land. The Defendant’s vehicle, {car reg}, was identified in the Copeland Street on the 14/06/2022 in breach of the advertised terms and conditions; namely Parked without displaying a valid ticket/permit. At all material times the Defendant was the registered keeper and/or the driver’. The particulars then continue and go on to mention that ‘the Defendant has failed to settle the outstanding liability’. This is I feel is incorrect, as the case should never have arisen in the first instance and a notice to keeper should never have been received in relation to this alleged breach. I have paid the claimant on the date of the contravention and have evidence of the payment being made on the date of the alleged breach.

In reference to the first point of the claim particulars ‘parked without displaying a valid ticket/permit’. Copeland Street, Derby utilises the Connect Cashless Parking application, which allows customers to pay for parking via the application, which is also deemed as a method listed under 'Pay by Phone' as per the claimants signage at Copeland Street car park [Evidence 1]. The application works by registering vehicles on the app and then selecting the vehicle on the day for whichever is parked. As a result, the application does not provide a physical ticket that needs to be displayed [Evidence 2]. The vehicle - {car reg} - involved in this alleged breach is one of 2 vehicles that I have registered on the application and on the day was listed as the default vehicle on my account [Evidence 3].

With reference to the second claim particular – ‘The signs specifically detail the terms and conditions and the consequences of failure to comply, namely a parking charge notice will be issued, and the defendant has failed to settle the outstanding liability’. I submitted an informal appeal to the claimant following receipt of a PCN, however, due to exceptional circumstances, my appeal was filed late and later denied as it was outside the allotted timeframe for appeals. As a result of a family bereavement, I was not able to follow this up with a formal appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS) prior to receiving the CCJ. In my defence, a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) should never have arisen in the first instance and this case should not have reached the courts nor should the fine have accumulated to such value. The reason being that the parking tariff for the day - £2.70 – was paid on Tuesday 14th June 2022. My bank statement evidences this [Evidence 4a] [Evidence 4b] and the transaction is further evidence of the outgoing payment to ‘Excel Parking Services’ [Evidence 5]. This payment was taken from the debit card linked to the Connect Cashless Parking application. Therefore I do not believe there to have been a breach of the advertised terms and conditions, especially considering a valid outgoing payment was made to the claimant, meaning my vehicle was parked and had displayed a valid ticket/permit.

My defence includes photo evidence showing proof of outgoing payment on the date of the contravention, my vehicle details being registered as default on the parking system used in place at Copeland street and evidence of the claimants signage at the car park. These can be provided as and when requested. I am a law abiding citizen who observes the law and where I am at fault I will admit to wrongdoing, however, in this case the claimant has no jurisdiction to make a judgement as no wrongdoing was committed. The claimant has in turn caused me undue stress and anxiety as a result. The claimant has proceeded with this claim through forms of unwarranted harassment through making a false accusation, especially when terms and conditions were not breached.'

The evidence I have is an outgoing payment for the parking session on the 14/06/2022. Evidence of my car being the default vehicle on the Connect parking app for Copeland street and evidence of the payment system and T&C's that Excel have at Copeland Street. Granted the defence is not 'professional', but I discovered the Newbies thread and @coupon-mad defence genius after I submitted the narrative on MCOL. 

Thanks!

Coupon-mad

Evidence doesn't go with a defence (it comes later) but I am glad that:

- you negotiated to settle this CCJ within the 30 days at £150, which will clear it, if done in time;

- you have defended the other claim in a pretty detailed way.  Please now read IMPORTANT: KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN in the NEWBIES thread because you still have to do a witness statement and evidence.

Are both claims about the same location and cause of action?

It looks like the payment machine failed to upload your payment to the PPC's back office, or maybe each time you paid for the other car or something...

...do you still have the proofs of payment?

And which claim form was filed first please, the one that caused the CCJ or the one that you defended?

B789

So, is this the defence you submitted for the second claim? It looks more like a witness statement rather than a defence. When was the deadline for filing this? Have you requested a SAR from the PPC? If you submitted that defence via the MCOL website, it may not have all gone through as I think there's a character limit and it will have just reproduced it for the claimant as a single wall of text with no proper formatting. (24 lines of 45 characters. 1080 characters in total)

You also need to re-read the Newbies thread until you begin to understand the whole process. I think you now realise some of the mistakes you made before you discovered this forum.

B789

This is all the claimant will have received for your defence (1080 characters):

'The claim (as per the CCJ ‘Particulars of Claim’) is in relation to ‘a breach of contract for breaching the terms and conditions set on private land. The Defendant’s vehicle, {car reg}, was identified in the Copeland Street on the 14/06/2022 in breach of the advertised terms and conditions; namely Parked without displaying a valid ticket/permit. At all material times the Defendant was the registered keeper and/or the driver’. The particulars then continue and go on to mention that ‘the Defendant has failed to settle the outstanding liability’. This is I feel is incorrect, as the case should never have arisen in the first instance and a notice to keeper should never have been received in relation to this alleged breach. I have paid the claimant on the date of the contravention and have evidence of the payment being made on the date of the alleged breach. In reference to the first point of the claim particulars ‘parked without displaying a valid ticket/permit’. Copeland Street, Derby utilises the Connect Cashless Parking application, which allows customers to pay 

I think if you want to change or submit a new defence, assuming that is possible, you have to pay for the privilege.

Coupon-mad

The defence is OK, I think.

HamzaM21

Coupon-mad said:

Evidence doesn't go with a defence (it comes later) but I am glad that:

- you negotiated to settle this CCJ within the 30 days at £150, which will clear it, if done in time;

- you have defended the other claim in a pretty detailed way.  Please now read IMPORTANT: KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN in the NEWBIES thread because you still have to do a witness statement and evidence.

Are both claims about the same location and cause of action?

It looks like the payment machine failed to upload your payment to the PPC's back office, or maybe each time you paid for the other car or something...

...do you still have the proofs of payment?

And which claim form was filed first please, the one that caused the CCJ or the one that you defended?

Hi, apologies I was away at the weekend. I tried to negotiate a lower settlement, but in the end they were adamant that £150 was the lowest they are willing to go. I requested that they put everything we discussed over the phone in an email and to note that the settlement was lowered from the original amount to the £150. I also have the transcript of the call notes that they make on their system for reference, which ELMS Legal (the solicitors office). Is there anything else I should ask for them to detail in an email to me to ensure I have sufficient proof that the claim has been paid? 

I will go ahead and read that note in the forum, I will certainly have questions and so will post my queries here if that's cool. 

Both claims are the same location and same cause of action. Although, the CCJ that I'm paying at £150, I forgot to submit a defence on MCOL. I had done the AOS, but the solicitor had agreed to review my evidence before I submitted a defence. I got caught up in that so much that I forgot to file a defence, which is annoying as ultimately its my fault in that regard. The one I have defended is the second claim and was filed after the first. Ensured that I did not repeat the same mistake twice. 

I do have the proofs of payment still. I have my bank statements that I can extract from my online banking. It's definitely an error on their part that they are refusing to take responsibility for by claiming they are not affiliated with the third party app - Connect. When I mentioned earlier if I could reclaim the money I paid for the £150 CCJ through this second one, what I meant was, do you think it would be possible to claim for costs should I win my defence against the second claim? or has that ship sailed?. 

B789 said:

So, is this the defence you submitted for the second claim? It looks more like a witness statement rather than a defence. When was the deadline for filing this? Have you requested a SAR from the PPC? If you submitted that defence via the MCOL website, it may not have all gone through as I think there's a character limit and it will have just reproduced it for the claimant as a single wall of text with no proper formatting. (24 lines of 45 characters. 1080 characters in total)

You also need to re-read the Newbies thread until you begin to understand the whole process. I think you now realise some of the mistakes you made before you discovered this forum.

I checked the defence over (It's not in third person format, which ideally it should be) but I looked at the character limit and it was way more than 1080 characters and I was able to include my full narrative and still have a lot of space remaining. So I think it's all gone through. 

I've not done a SAR from the PPC, how can I do this please? is there a set template I can use?. I'll go ahead and read the newbies thread. Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. Should I wish to re-submit a defence, how much would I have to pay and how can I do that? 

Coupon-mad said:

The defence is OK, I think.

If ok, will I have the opportunity to provide additional information after I receive an update, or as @B789 says, should I explore the option to re-submit a defence and go full whack and send the defence template you have added on the Newbies thread and plug my defence into that and address is from a third person perspective?

Thanks!

Coupon-mad

You can ask for limited costs at the hearing, if it progresses that far.  You can't actually file a counterclaim now as you've already defended, but costs are not a counterclaim anyway.

Both claims are the same location and same cause of action. The one I have defended is the second claim and was filed after the first.

OK, so when you get to WS & evidence stage, MAKE A NOTE NOW to include the Henderson v Henderson argument about cause of action estoppel.

Search the forum if that wasn't in your defence, so you can raise it as a legal point in the WS.

It's not as if you will be ambushing the Claimant with something new, because they already know they filed 2 near-duplicate (and unnecessarily split) claims and that this second one is an abuse of the court system.  The second claim should be estopped.

HamzaM21

Coupon-mad said:

You can ask for limited costs at the hearing, if it progresses that far.  You can't actually file a counterclaim now as you've already defended, but costs are not a counterclaim anyway.

Both claims are the same location and same cause of action. The one I have defended is the second claim and was filed after the first.

OK, so when you get to WS & evidence stage, MAKE A NOTE NOW to include the Henderson v Henderson argument about cause of action estoppel.

Search the forum if that wasn't in your defence, so you can raise it as a legal point in the WS.

It's not as if you will be ambushing the Claimant with something new, because they already know they filed 2 near-duplicate (and unnecessarily split) claims and that this second one is an abuse of the court system.  The second claim should be estopped.

Perfect! I'll definitely make a note of that for sure and plug that in. Is there a template for a thorough WS on the thread? As for the costs, how can I ask for the costs without a hearing/ or if it gets to that stage, how much can I ask for?. It most definitely is an abuse as they keep threatening CCJ's, which scare people off into paying. 

As for the one I will be paying, what should I ask the solicitor to detail in an email, in addition to what I already have? I was going to pay them tomorrow now, but wanted to gather some idea about what to request to ensure I have the proof of payment should they turn around after I've paid and say I haven't paid (I don't trust these companies at all and the tactics they will go to all lengths to employ). 

Thanks

Coupon-mad

You won't get costs if there's no hearing. Sadly.

Why not just record the phone call?

HamzaM21

Coupon-mad said:

You won't get costs if there's no hearing. Sadly.

Why not just record the phone call?

Under what circumstances would it go through to a hearing? and if it doesn't get to that stage and the claim is stopped, could I go through small claims court at all afterwards?

I'm going to be calling them through my mobile and I don't have an option to record at the same, but I'd like a paper trail through email to ensure I have everything on record.