Issue with selling property which has two titles, one in the wrong name.

Fred2023

user1977 said:

Fred2023 said:

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

Yes I could go to land registry and get copies, but regardless of that I have been told the properties has two titles one of which is still in the previous owners names. My current buyers solicitors have advised the buyers not to proceed until both titles are in my names. 

Does not mean that advice might not change. Or your buyers may choose to ignore the advice. Or your next buyers might get different advice. So understanding the issue properly is worthwhile.

So regardless of what part of the property makes up the titles, the issue remains that I need both titles in my name and need to find a way of doing this. The quickest way of doing this would be to get the previous owners to sign them over, the male party has done this but the female party (they are now divorced) is not making any contact despite me offering money to compensate their time. So any suggestions as to how I proceed.

Already covered in the previous 3 pages. I doubt anyone now is going to suddenly present a magic new option.

maybe I have not read it right but from reading the last 3 pages I cannot see any solutions offered which have not been tried.

So (as I've already mentioned twice above) have you discussed with your solicitor how much of a problem the flying freehold actually is? Does this second title contain anything other than the land under the flying freehold? I don't think you've clarified that so far. As already suggested, posting the plans here would help everybody understand the position better.

The only option I can see is potentially taking the female party to court, but for what exactly? Ideally I need to know that there is no other option before going down this route.
I have heard (don't know how true it is) that female is housebound, I don't know if that is through disability, health, mental health reasons, but if that is the case then would make court action harder?

Not really, given that conducting legal action rarely involves having to leave the house, and I doubt it literally means it's impossible for her to go outside.

I really don't want to sound ungrateful as all help is greatly appreciated but I think things are getting muddled up with flying freehold and titles and I should be posting the plans. To me posting the plans helps nothing at all, the flying freehold relates to a small section of first floor bedroom which overhangs a public footpath (around 8' x 12'). How I understand it is that the flying freehold relates to the bedroom only and not the ground underneath. To me it is irrelevant what the plans state and I can only go on fact, and that is the property has two titles one of which is still in the old occupants name of 2007, regardless of what bit of the property is still in their name, the fact remains part of the property is in their name and until both titles are in my name the house cannot be sold. I would gladly draw a sketch of the property (like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor) and if I can work out how to attach a drawing, but by doing this, how exactly would it help?

user1977

Fred2023 said:

user1977 said:

Fred2023 said:

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

Yes I could go to land registry and get copies, but regardless of that I have been told the properties has two titles one of which is still in the previous owners names. My current buyers solicitors have advised the buyers not to proceed until both titles are in my names. 

Does not mean that advice might not change. Or your buyers may choose to ignore the advice. Or your next buyers might get different advice. So understanding the issue properly is worthwhile.

So regardless of what part of the property makes up the titles, the issue remains that I need both titles in my name and need to find a way of doing this. The quickest way of doing this would be to get the previous owners to sign them over, the male party has done this but the female party (they are now divorced) is not making any contact despite me offering money to compensate their time. So any suggestions as to how I proceed.

Already covered in the previous 3 pages. I doubt anyone now is going to suddenly present a magic new option.

maybe I have not read it right but from reading the last 3 pages I cannot see any solutions offered which have not been tried.

So (as I've already mentioned twice above) have you discussed with your solicitor how much of a problem the flying freehold actually is? Does this second title contain anything other than the land under the flying freehold? I don't think you've clarified that so far. As already suggested, posting the plans here would help everybody understand the position better.

The only option I can see is potentially taking the female party to court, but for what exactly? Ideally I need to know that there is no other option before going down this route.
I have heard (don't know how true it is) that female is housebound, I don't know if that is through disability, health, mental health reasons, but if that is the case then would make court action harder?

Not really, given that conducting legal action rarely involves having to leave the house, and I doubt it literally means it's impossible for her to go outside.

I really don't want to sound ungrateful as all help is greatly appreciated but I think things are getting muddled up with flying freehold and titles and I should be posting the plans. To me posting the plans helps nothing at all, the flying freehold relates to a small section of first floor bedroom which overhangs a public footpath (around 8' x 12'). How I understand it is that the flying freehold relates to the bedroom only and not the ground underneath. To me it is irrelevant what the plans state and I can only go on fact, and that is the property has two titles one of which is still in the old occupants name of 2007, regardless of what bit of the property is still in their name, the fact remains part of the property is in their name and until both titles are in my name the house cannot be sold. I would gladly draw a sketch of the property (like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor) and if I can work out how to attach a drawing, but by doing this, how exactly would it help?

It would have helped because I don't think until now you've clarified that the second plot does relate solely to the flying freehold area, and not anything additional.

But now we know this is purely a question about a flying freehold of a relatively minor part of the property, that means it (probably) is not essential that you get the "missing" title, and there are likely to be alternative solutions to your problem.

propertyrental

Fred2023 said:

user1977 said:

Fred2023 said:

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

Yes I could go to land registry and get copies, but regardless of that I have been told the properties has two titles one of which is still in the previous owners names. My current buyers solicitors have advised the buyers not to proceed until both titles are in my names. 

Does not mean that advice might not change. Or your buyers may choose to ignore the advice. Or your next buyers might get different advice. So understanding the issue properly is worthwhile.

So regardless of what part of the property makes up the titles, the issue remains that I need both titles in my name and need to find a way of doing this. The quickest way of doing this would be to get the previous owners to sign them over, the male party has done this but the female party (they are now divorced) is not making any contact despite me offering money to compensate their time. So any suggestions as to how I proceed.

Already covered in the previous 3 pages. I doubt anyone now is going to suddenly present a magic new option.

maybe I have not read it right but from reading the last 3 pages I cannot see any solutions offered which have not been tried.

So (as I've already mentioned twice above) have you discussed with your solicitor how much of a problem the flying freehold actually is? Does this second title contain anything other than the land under the flying freehold? I don't think you've clarified that so far. As already suggested, posting the plans here would help everybody understand the position better.

The only option I can see is potentially taking the female party to court, but for what exactly? Ideally I need to know that there is no other option before going down this route.
I have heard (don't know how true it is) that female is housebound, I don't know if that is through disability, health, mental health reasons, but if that is the case then would make court action harder?

Not really, given that conducting legal action rarely involves having to leave the house, and I doubt it literally means it's impossible for her to go outside.

.....I would gladly draw a sketch of the property (like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor) and if I can work out how to attach a drawing, but by doing this, how exactly would it help?

It would help not one jot! As there would still be an element of guesswork. As user1977 has said, you have clarified things a bit (though from memory, not fact) inasmuch as we now know (subject to caveats) that the FF is over a public footpath rather than, say, next door's sitting room.

But only the Title and Plan will give full information including for example possible maintenance obligations/rights.

like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor)

Frankly given your (justifiable) concern and lack of clarity, I am staggered you are not prepared to spend 10 minutes, and £3 (or better still £6) getting the Plan and Title.

Yes this is a 'moneysaving'site, but when spending £X00,000, saving £6 is just plaIn........

GDB2222

Fred2023 said:

user1977 said:

Fred2023 said:

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

Yes I could go to land registry and get copies, but regardless of that I have been told the properties has two titles one of which is still in the previous owners names. My current buyers solicitors have advised the buyers not to proceed until both titles are in my names. 

Does not mean that advice might not change. Or your buyers may choose to ignore the advice. Or your next buyers might get different advice. So understanding the issue properly is worthwhile.

So regardless of what part of the property makes up the titles, the issue remains that I need both titles in my name and need to find a way of doing this. The quickest way of doing this would be to get the previous owners to sign them over, the male party has done this but the female party (they are now divorced) is not making any contact despite me offering money to compensate their time. So any suggestions as to how I proceed.

Already covered in the previous 3 pages. I doubt anyone now is going to suddenly present a magic new option.

maybe I have not read it right but from reading the last 3 pages I cannot see any solutions offered which have not been tried.

So (as I've already mentioned twice above) have you discussed with your solicitor how much of a problem the flying freehold actually is? Does this second title contain anything other than the land under the flying freehold? I don't think you've clarified that so far. As already suggested, posting the plans here would help everybody understand the position better.

The only option I can see is potentially taking the female party to court, but for what exactly? Ideally I need to know that there is no other option before going down this route.
I have heard (don't know how true it is) that female is housebound, I don't know if that is through disability, health, mental health reasons, but if that is the case then would make court action harder?

Not really, given that conducting legal action rarely involves having to leave the house, and I doubt it literally means it's impossible for her to go outside.

I really don't want to sound ungrateful as all help is greatly appreciated but I think things are getting muddled up with flying freehold and titles and I should be posting the plans. To me posting the plans helps nothing at all, the flying freehold relates to a small section of first floor bedroom which overhangs a public footpath (around 8' x 12'). How I understand it is that the flying freehold relates to the bedroom only and not the ground underneath. To me it is irrelevant what the plans state and I can only go on fact, and that is the property has two titles one of which is still in the old occupants name of 2007, regardless of what bit of the property is still in their name, the fact remains part of the property is in their name and until both titles are in my name the house cannot be sold. I would gladly draw a sketch of the property (like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor) and if I can work out how to attach a drawing, but by doing this, how exactly would it help?

I agree with you on that.

You mentioned earlier that you are concerned about being accused of harassment if you contact this lady yourself. Obviously, it depends on what you say,  but a polite letter explaining that this is causing difficulties selling your house, and offering to help/pay for legal advice for the lady, would not be a problem. 

Fred2023

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

user1977 said:

Fred2023 said:

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

Yes I could go to land registry and get copies, but regardless of that I have been told the properties has two titles one of which is still in the previous owners names. My current buyers solicitors have advised the buyers not to proceed until both titles are in my names. 

Does not mean that advice might not change. Or your buyers may choose to ignore the advice. Or your next buyers might get different advice. So understanding the issue properly is worthwhile.

So regardless of what part of the property makes up the titles, the issue remains that I need both titles in my name and need to find a way of doing this. The quickest way of doing this would be to get the previous owners to sign them over, the male party has done this but the female party (they are now divorced) is not making any contact despite me offering money to compensate their time. So any suggestions as to how I proceed.

Already covered in the previous 3 pages. I doubt anyone now is going to suddenly present a magic new option.

maybe I have not read it right but from reading the last 3 pages I cannot see any solutions offered which have not been tried.

So (as I've already mentioned twice above) have you discussed with your solicitor how much of a problem the flying freehold actually is? Does this second title contain anything other than the land under the flying freehold? I don't think you've clarified that so far. As already suggested, posting the plans here would help everybody understand the position better.

The only option I can see is potentially taking the female party to court, but for what exactly? Ideally I need to know that there is no other option before going down this route.
I have heard (don't know how true it is) that female is housebound, I don't know if that is through disability, health, mental health reasons, but if that is the case then would make court action harder?

Not really, given that conducting legal action rarely involves having to leave the house, and I doubt it literally means it's impossible for her to go outside.

.....I would gladly draw a sketch of the property (like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor) and if I can work out how to attach a drawing, but by doing this, how exactly would it help?

It would help not one jot! As there would still be an element of guesswork. As user1977 has said, you have clarified things a bit (though from memory, not fact) inasmuch as we now know (subject to caveats) that the FF is over a public footpath rather than, say, next door's sitting room.

But only the Title and Plan will give full information including for example possible maintenance obligations/rights.

like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor)

Frankly given your (justifiable) concern and lack of clarity, I am staggered you are not prepared to spend 10 minutes, and £3 (or better still £6) getting the Plan and Title.

Yes this is a 'moneysaving'site, but when spending £X00,000, saving £6 is just plaIn........

I have obtained the plan and title online for the £6, it's not about spending the money, it's just that I do not think it helps matters. I only have a small tablet and cannot find a way to upload the paperwork and to block out the bits I do not want seeing (address details etc).
What has come back is a plan of the property with a red boundary on the ground floor (the red outline does not cover the small upstairs bit of the bedroom which just out over the pathway underneath) and this comes under a title number. It only shows one title number and this is registered to me.
The only mention anywhere of another title is under the charges section and this reads (I have not added the whole thing as it over 14 pages long)
I have changed some details over to **** to cover names up

C: Charges Register

This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land.

Class of Title: Title absolute

Entry number Entry date

1 1993-09-06 A Transfer of the land in this title dated 30 March

1993 made between (1) ********* District Council

(Council) and (2) *********** Housing

Association Limited (Transferee) contains

covenants details of which are set out in the

schedule of restrictive covenants hereto.

A Transfer of the land in this title and in title

NK******* (THIS TITLE IS THE ONE DIFFERENT TO THE MAP WITH THE RED OUTLINE REGISTERED TO )ME) dated 2 December 2002 made

between (1) ****** Housing Association

Limited and (2) (THIS CONTAINED NAMES OF OCCUPANTS IN 2007) contains restrictive covenants.

¬NOTE: Original filed.

So out of some 20 plus pages I got from downloading the plan and title, above is the only reference I could find to the other title. 
I have been told there are two titles and one remains in the previous occupants names.
Again to me, it does not matter one single bit what part of the property is on another title, it could be a metre square bit in the garden for all I care, but the fact remains unless both titles are in my name the new buyers solicitors will advise them not to buy.
Also a quick update about the female previous owner, she is still failing to communicate, despite my solicitor chasing her up.

SusieT

Perhaps a letter before action from your solicitor to the female ex owner may move things along? You could include the form again and say if it is not signed and returned that you will be claiming damages for her not signing her paperwork?

GDB2222

Fred2023 said:

Also a quick update about the female previous owner, she is still failing to communicate, despite my solicitor chasing her up.

You probably expected that. So, what are you going to do next? 

user1977

Fred2023 said:

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

user1977 said:

Fred2023 said:

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

Yes I could go to land registry and get copies, but regardless of that I have been told the properties has two titles one of which is still in the previous owners names. My current buyers solicitors have advised the buyers not to proceed until both titles are in my names. 

Does not mean that advice might not change. Or your buyers may choose to ignore the advice. Or your next buyers might get different advice. So understanding the issue properly is worthwhile.

So regardless of what part of the property makes up the titles, the issue remains that I need both titles in my name and need to find a way of doing this. The quickest way of doing this would be to get the previous owners to sign them over, the male party has done this but the female party (they are now divorced) is not making any contact despite me offering money to compensate their time. So any suggestions as to how I proceed.

Already covered in the previous 3 pages. I doubt anyone now is going to suddenly present a magic new option.

maybe I have not read it right but from reading the last 3 pages I cannot see any solutions offered which have not been tried.

So (as I've already mentioned twice above) have you discussed with your solicitor how much of a problem the flying freehold actually is? Does this second title contain anything other than the land under the flying freehold? I don't think you've clarified that so far. As already suggested, posting the plans here would help everybody understand the position better.

The only option I can see is potentially taking the female party to court, but for what exactly? Ideally I need to know that there is no other option before going down this route.
I have heard (don't know how true it is) that female is housebound, I don't know if that is through disability, health, mental health reasons, but if that is the case then would make court action harder?

Not really, given that conducting legal action rarely involves having to leave the house, and I doubt it literally means it's impossible for her to go outside.

.....I would gladly draw a sketch of the property (like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor) and if I can work out how to attach a drawing, but by doing this, how exactly would it help?

It would help not one jot! As there would still be an element of guesswork. As user1977 has said, you have clarified things a bit (though from memory, not fact) inasmuch as we now know (subject to caveats) that the FF is over a public footpath rather than, say, next door's sitting room.

But only the Title and Plan will give full information including for example possible maintenance obligations/rights.

like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor)

Frankly given your (justifiable) concern and lack of clarity, I am staggered you are not prepared to spend 10 minutes, and £3 (or better still £6) getting the Plan and Title.

Yes this is a 'moneysaving'site, but when spending £X00,000, saving £6 is just plaIn........

the fact remains unless both titles are in my name the new buyers solicitors will advise them not to buy.

How can you be certain of that? Like I've already said, it's understandable that's their preferred position, but if you tell them they're not getting the second title, are they really going to flounce off? Or will they consider other options that would enable the transaction to proceed?

GDB2222

user1977 said:

Fred2023 said:

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

user1977 said:

Fred2023 said:

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

Yes I could go to land registry and get copies, but regardless of that I have been told the properties has two titles one of which is still in the previous owners names. My current buyers solicitors have advised the buyers not to proceed until both titles are in my names. 

Does not mean that advice might not change. Or your buyers may choose to ignore the advice. Or your next buyers might get different advice. So understanding the issue properly is worthwhile.

So regardless of what part of the property makes up the titles, the issue remains that I need both titles in my name and need to find a way of doing this. The quickest way of doing this would be to get the previous owners to sign them over, the male party has done this but the female party (they are now divorced) is not making any contact despite me offering money to compensate their time. So any suggestions as to how I proceed.

Already covered in the previous 3 pages. I doubt anyone now is going to suddenly present a magic new option.

maybe I have not read it right but from reading the last 3 pages I cannot see any solutions offered which have not been tried.

So (as I've already mentioned twice above) have you discussed with your solicitor how much of a problem the flying freehold actually is? Does this second title contain anything other than the land under the flying freehold? I don't think you've clarified that so far. As already suggested, posting the plans here would help everybody understand the position better.

The only option I can see is potentially taking the female party to court, but for what exactly? Ideally I need to know that there is no other option before going down this route.
I have heard (don't know how true it is) that female is housebound, I don't know if that is through disability, health, mental health reasons, but if that is the case then would make court action harder?

Not really, given that conducting legal action rarely involves having to leave the house, and I doubt it literally means it's impossible for her to go outside.

.....I would gladly draw a sketch of the property (like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor) and if I can work out how to attach a drawing, but by doing this, how exactly would it help?

It would help not one jot! As there would still be an element of guesswork. As user1977 has said, you have clarified things a bit (though from memory, not fact) inasmuch as we now know (subject to caveats) that the FF is over a public footpath rather than, say, next door's sitting room.

But only the Title and Plan will give full information including for example possible maintenance obligations/rights.

like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor)

Frankly given your (justifiable) concern and lack of clarity, I am staggered you are not prepared to spend 10 minutes, and £3 (or better still £6) getting the Plan and Title.

Yes this is a 'moneysaving'site, but when spending £X00,000, saving £6 is just plaIn........

the fact remains unless both titles are in my name the new buyers solicitors will advise them not to buy.

How can you be certain of that? Like I've already said, it's understandable that's their preferred position, but if you tell them they're not getting the second title, are they really going to flounce off? Or will they consider other options that would enable the transaction to proceed?

If my solicitor said that I needed two titles, and the seller could only provide one, I might take a view if I were a 100% cash buyer. But, anybody needing a mortgage would be dependent on their lender, and they tend to be very cautious. 

Even if I did take a view as a cash buyer, I'd want a discount because the property will be hard to sell in future. 

user1977

GDB2222 said:

user1977 said:

Fred2023 said:

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

user1977 said:

Fred2023 said:

propertyrental said:

Fred2023 said:

Yes I could go to land registry and get copies, but regardless of that I have been told the properties has two titles one of which is still in the previous owners names. My current buyers solicitors have advised the buyers not to proceed until both titles are in my names. 

Does not mean that advice might not change. Or your buyers may choose to ignore the advice. Or your next buyers might get different advice. So understanding the issue properly is worthwhile.

So regardless of what part of the property makes up the titles, the issue remains that I need both titles in my name and need to find a way of doing this. The quickest way of doing this would be to get the previous owners to sign them over, the male party has done this but the female party (they are now divorced) is not making any contact despite me offering money to compensate their time. So any suggestions as to how I proceed.

Already covered in the previous 3 pages. I doubt anyone now is going to suddenly present a magic new option.

maybe I have not read it right but from reading the last 3 pages I cannot see any solutions offered which have not been tried.

So (as I've already mentioned twice above) have you discussed with your solicitor how much of a problem the flying freehold actually is? Does this second title contain anything other than the land under the flying freehold? I don't think you've clarified that so far. As already suggested, posting the plans here would help everybody understand the position better.

The only option I can see is potentially taking the female party to court, but for what exactly? Ideally I need to know that there is no other option before going down this route.
I have heard (don't know how true it is) that female is housebound, I don't know if that is through disability, health, mental health reasons, but if that is the case then would make court action harder?

Not really, given that conducting legal action rarely involves having to leave the house, and I doubt it literally means it's impossible for her to go outside.

.....I would gladly draw a sketch of the property (like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor) and if I can work out how to attach a drawing, but by doing this, how exactly would it help?

It would help not one jot! As there would still be an element of guesswork. As user1977 has said, you have clarified things a bit (though from memory, not fact) inasmuch as we now know (subject to caveats) that the FF is over a public footpath rather than, say, next door's sitting room.

But only the Title and Plan will give full information including for example possible maintenance obligations/rights.

like I said before actual plans are with my solicitor)

Frankly given your (justifiable) concern and lack of clarity, I am staggered you are not prepared to spend 10 minutes, and £3 (or better still £6) getting the Plan and Title.

Yes this is a 'moneysaving'site, but when spending £X00,000, saving £6 is just plaIn........

the fact remains unless both titles are in my name the new buyers solicitors will advise them not to buy.

How can you be certain of that? Like I've already said, it's understandable that's their preferred position, but if you tell them they're not getting the second title, are they really going to flounce off? Or will they consider other options that would enable the transaction to proceed?

If my solicitor said that I needed two titles, and the seller could only provide one, I might take a view if I were a 100% cash buyer. But, anybody needing a mortgage would be dependent on their lender, and they tend to be very cautious. 

Luckily the lenders have thought about this issue before and most have a policy readily available:

https://lendershandbook.ukfinance.org.uk/lenders-handbook/englandandwales/question-list/1835/

As you'll see, it's generally going to be mortgageable if only a relatively small part of the property is affected.