Scottish Power over estimated bill and I can't resubmit readings, and can't complain to Ofgem either

Eldi_Dos

@Jibber123,
 that bill you posted on 23/2 has personal details which would best be removed.

Jibber123

Eldi_Dos said:

@Jibber123,
 that bill you posted on 23/2 has personal details which would best be removed.

Thanks
I think that's Scottish powers bank details but I've removed it anyway.

Scot_39

deano2099 said:

Jibber123 said:

I'm totally confused by it and all i get from Scottish power is how would you like to pay!

833.8kWh x 52.747p = £439.81, not £398.11 . Whereas the second set of figures do add up (1447.2 x 56.471).

Coming late to this thread - and it's a long thread - so apologies if I've missed a resolution.

Your last few updates have been talking in pounds.

The only suggesting I can make re the double or even treble billing - is add any costs - bank overdraft etc - to the or a formal complaint.

I couldnt base anything on the actual £ amounts - on your spreadhseet - without trying to backcalculate usage after Dec 31 reading - and by correct - you do mean based on all the right readings ?

But just based on the above bill - that new pink £1132 ex VAT shown for electric to 24 Feb - is c2.5x the amount above for Oct-Dec (£430ex vat).

So potentially (c£700 ex VAT in c55 days - £430 inc VAT in previous 78 1130 total). £700/55 = £ 12.72 per day - £430/78 = £5.51 - so over twice the daily units ?

Neither your orginal 2 bill amounts appear - but there is a cancelled £649 - was that right - meter reading wise - and just replaced by the much higher 24 Feb end date bill - or just cancelled as wrong again - as thats almost £480 below the £1132  - for 5 weeks ?

So are you happy that 24th Feb bill is now a real reading and real charge bill ?

Have you started formal complaint proceedings - about that initial inaccurate bill (not the 400 - the 817) . As if being rebilled - assuming you are in some contact (or just managing to submit a reading online ?).

Or are the revised bills - cancelling costs and SP dropping credit threats etc.

Thats not the same as just asking an operator - to look into it - or accepting the need to call back if they say the systems down - or cannot get through.

That's actually saying something like "I want this recorded as a formal complaint" or accepting to do so if they offer - of if cannot as "system down" - actually starting a formal complaint direct by say emailing SP.

https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/support-centre/complaints#scottishpower-domestic-and-small-business-complaints

Given the debt charges etc it looks like you are on the road to a precarious situation - I would go straight to email - if not already started - or have these now also been refunded etc. 

Same with repeated bills for same periods etc.  They should cancel when reissue.

The time has defintely long since gone for e.g. waiting for 2 week call backs - or tolerating their "system down" failures to help - as some of your other earlier posts - it really isn't helping you.

If not real readings

Any manual readings, times / dates etc of attempts to talk to them or actually talked to them, unsuccesfully etc will help them process the complaint.

And take more readings now - ideally with photos - to build up you actual usage profile.

We had to submit 2 a month apart to help convince BG of their bad estimates.

As I say just getting worried as you have had charges and credit agency contact.

By the way - can anyone confirm that would have halted once in formal complaint process ? 

(BG  never threatened when had problems with mums account - despite actual famly readings sent and professionally taken - 18m of estimates - she was too trusting to check and unfamiliar with bills - the (E)s meant nothing to her)

1) Error on Jan 13th Usage Bill

As you know by now the 13 Jan estimate is silly.  Like out by over 1000 units.

The 1440 over 13 days - over 100kWh a day - cf 10kWh/actual (yes?) before Xmas.

Given you confirmed on 22/2 they other 2 were real manual readings - yes

14th Oct and 31st Dec when they were entered onto the website. They are correct and they sent a bill out on the 15th Jan which I paid £398.11

And even more so when you stated on 22/2

The actual readings now are 27485. There is nothing else after that just ways to pay, where your energy comes from, and how much you've used compare to last year.

If that was the reading on the 22/2 - there's no way it could have been as high as 28751 on the 13th Jan.

You unfortunately seem to have gotten into a big initial delay - by worrying about not getting your 13th Jan or so reading in right away.

As another post - any dates reading - like the 22/2 one - would have helped.

As another post - you have been overbilled for c1300 units - as at 10kWh a day - it would be more like 130 Units - not 1440 for 13 days.  Charitably say 200 units used.

Again as another poster has already pointed out - page 1 states 13 Jan = 27451 - far more reasonable but still probably too high - pretty close to your 22/2 figure.

2) The tariffs

Did I read those right - the two pages with the usage etc 833/14x0 - uses rates of 47.747 and 56.071 - the other uses 52.747 and 56.471. 

But the tariff name is the same.

3) Weird - but perhaps SP norm

You are definitely getting the EPG discount  - just not in the way I would expect - given a change in Ofgem and EPG figures.From Ofgem announcment for Jan 1st

"From 1 January the equivalent per unit level of the price cap to the nearest pence for a typical customer paying by direct debit will be 67p per kWh for electricity customers and a standing charge of 46p per day. The equivalent per unit level for a typical gas customer is 17p per kWh with a standing charge of 28p per day. "

The pay on bill (standard credit) around 3.5p more - but regional average so would expect a gross rate c70+/-Xp - from Jan 1st - on billing - and the higher 31.84p discount.

But they appear to be sticking to sum mixed adjustment - keeping the old discount level - is born out by checking use and the value statement on the EPG refund on the bottom of the full p3 of 8 page

The bill that was on actually for (833.8+1477.2) at 17p/kWh - works out - by my calcs as £412 inc VAT - so looks good.

4) Where are the billing amounts for the Night use.

Again as another poster.

On page 1 - it uses estimates of 27451 day and 63139 night.  Are you actually on an E7 or legacy multirate tariff like White Meter or THTC - or are you on SR tariff.

The readings on the 2 bits of bills I can see - using 833 and 14x0 - are both around the day rate estimate.

The tariff only mentions one price - is the night some long since frozen legacy thing.

Because wouldn't expect to see it on the bills anymore.

Do you have 1 or 2 physical meters / MPAN's on bills ?

Have you checked the Jan and Oct rates - remember to add the hidden 17 p (ex VAT) discount - against the govt tables for your region.

Jibber123

I've gone through all the bills and the calculations seem to be right for the meter readings given, all bar a few pence here and there in rounding errors. I still think my unit rates are far to high and the main issue is they are billing me 2 or 3 times for the same period recently, they need to cancel the incorrect bills and then send out a new one.

Scot_39

Jibber123 said:

I've gone through all the bills and the calculations seem to be right for the meter readings given, all bar a few pence here and there in rounding errors. I still think my unit rates are far to high and the main issue is they are billing me 2 or 3 times for the same period recently, they need to cancel the incorrect bills and then send out a new one.

The rates themselves - you are actually paying are close to the EPG price - given how the EPG credit isn't explicit in the use calcs - and just magically from what I can still see - you may have deleted other pages making it clearer - gets offset between the actual cost on p2 - and the charged cost - on p1 - in the simple - before, this period, now - billing summary.  I can see why you might think that. But us some others said above - that is because they are the raw pre-discount prices.

So regarding your comment - But  "I still think my unit rates are far to high" -  are you sure that this isn't still purely because you expect those lines to read around the EPG rates after discount applied - instead of the raw tariffs currently shown ?

Which takes me right back to your very 1st post and the line

"I have also found out they have put my unit charge up to 56p a kWh which is nearly double the price cap, just because I don't pay by direct debit"

For your electricity usage calcs - the SP format example p2 tables where kWh used x xx.xxp/kWh lines - as you have attached 2 copies of - these are displaying the higher pre discount (raw/gross etc) - not the EPG table rates.  The actual discount is offset from these usage costs - before your running balance is update  on p1 or p2 summary (though I struggle with the presentation on p2) See below for my / a potential derivation of how these might be derived.

The parts of the bill I can see - are not exactly the finest examples of billing clarity I have ever seen.

As it seems perhaps the actual EPG discount (the £411) - and probably the EBSS discount for 3m ? - applied as part of the "hidden" amount - in the transition from the total costs for electricity calc £1316 inc VAT - on the p2of8 example posted - to the costs this period - a far lower £681 on page 1of8 bill summary.

And equally perhaps obscurely - as I am struggling to understand it  - on p2 - potentially the revised balance - the lower £418 balance carried forward figure. Is that really EPG and EBSS - added to your opening debt - to produce a new figure - actually to form a credit (but shown in the debit column) - to then subtract from the 1316 energy use - to match the net balance of £899. (So c£418 credit (- -c£218 opening debit = c£636 ebss and epg credits?) to subtract from 1316 usage - to get £899. 

So although unclear - it does appear you have actually received EPG rates and EBSS credits - as part of c£635 of additional credit to offset your kWh usage costs in table p2 - at raw rates. My guess the £411 (but +VAT, not inc VAT As my original post ?? ) and EBSS for 3 ? months. (Did the Oct £66 EBSS figure appear in the previous bill to Oct11 ? and was there an equiv kWh estimate 1-11Oct - and corresponding EPG value on p3  - and does that difference also then feed into the cost difference between p1 and p2 figures ?)

Without that "magic" credit - the £1316 for actual units from p2 of 8 would have been transferred and added to your opening 231 debt - is that a debt (its a positive number in a debit column ? - and you would owe c £1550 - on the P1 summary.  Rather than £899

So not sure that any revised bill itself is overcharging you - even if I can only get close to current - rather than exactly (so again, close, but no cigar) - to some of their estimates if it is applying similar logic - raw rates - crediting EBSS and EPG payments implicitly rather than explicitly etc.

And the only other issue that there might be is readings - estimate vs actual - and  believe you are now happy with these - that these now match your actual readings - including say the one on 22/2 or simiilar - and actual readings are reflected in the £1132.

Which is strangely higher - albiet including a month more than the £899 - so is that figure - in the spreadsheet - taken from the same place as the £1316 on p2of8 example.  Or is is the same place as the £899 in the p1/p2 of 8 example ?

Possibly Estimates of Pre Discount Rates for P2 of Your Bills

So using the £411 on the bill p3 of 8 example - that is approx the 833+1470 units on that bill times the 17p discount - +VAT - in place to Dec31. But apparently applied to whole bill usage - the 833 before Jan Ofgem change and the 1470?/1440 as readings.  (If they had used the new 31.84p for the 1470 - that would have been nearer - £610ex/£640 - but that wasn't what they stated - and would have been applied against too low a raw rate for post Jan usage).

And the simple fact your raw unit rates did not react significantly to the Ofgem rises in Jan - as my other post - Ofgem's new c67p average DD - actually 70p+ for standard credit inc VAT. Yours are or were still around c56p ex VAT.

The EPG rates for all standard direct domestic supply single rate tariffs - (leaving the issue of the off peak register readings on the bill p1of8 summary aside) for standard credit (paying on receipt of bill) -

Oct - Mar

between 33.245p and 37.001p SR EPG - depending on region - +17p - so c50.2p and c54p pre discount - all ex 5% VAT.

The numbers changed - as did the nominal discount in Jan - 17p to 31.84p - ( some up some down a little relative to average ) - Jan 1st to Ma  - most energy bills post Jan I would have expected to reflect that - as per my post section "3) Weird...".

But the EPG £411 figure - given 1470 or was it 1440 for 13 days - calculated out approx. using the 17p for the whole bill period as well - inc VAT.

And the raw unit rates were way sub the c70.5p ave +/- c2p regional variation from Ofgem itself (those inc VAT) - so as I say - funny - but I will use the pre Jan 1st 17p discount post Jan 1st below as a rough guide to what might have been happening on the bills

Jan-Mar

between 33.66 and 38.26 SR EPG - depending on region - inc that 17p - 50.66 and 55.26 pre discount - all ex VAT ? - if I have understood SP £411 EPG rebate example.

(But on many other firms bills - could have looked more like

33.66 and 38.26 - depending on region - inc new 31.84p -  so  65.5 and 70.1 pre discount - all ex VAT ?)

Find your actual region prices here - use standard credit tables - but remember these are all quoted after the EPG discount - which are only actually explicitly stated for other purposes on the govt website. 

The net rates as charged should match these EPG rates if on standard SR billing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/energy-price-guarantee-regional-rates/energy-price-guarantee-regional-rates

and

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/energy-price-guarantee-regional-rates/energy-price-guarantee-regional-rates-january-to-march-2023

Again from my post

2) The tariffs

Did I read those right - the two pages with the usage etc 833/14x0 - uses rates of 47.747 and 56.071 - the other uses 52.747 and 56.471.

So at the moment - I dont see the unit rates as being on those two bills as extortionate or overcharging you - but nor can I explain the full range - get close, 'but no cigar' - or know the exact region - so your govt set regional price - within the EPG regional variation.

I don't as I said in "3) Weird... " above understand the format or EPG calcs SP appear to be using for post Jan 1st on your p=3of8 bill example. And given that was around 60% of the units - and for a reading for over 1000 units above your Feb 22 number posted here - for 13 days in Jan - assuming that 22/2 reading was more current - that worried me.

In my case the Jan changes were made clear and appear really explicitly on my billing.

My E10 peak rates on bills - went from c57.2p / kWh raw -17p discount on bill prior to Jan 1st - to c74.2p raw - 31.84p discount on and after.  Off peak rate lower - but also went up then discounted.

But the discount one liner - with no derivation - as per 3of8 - doesn't explicitly confirm SP sticking to 17p - just that would have been more like £610 ex/ £640 inc VAT. Not £411.