ECP DCB Legal default CCJ - Claims form not received, seems to be CNBC error

B789

There is one picture from Dec 22 when the parking event took place. All the other pictures are from months earlier. You stated that building work had commenced and the car park was already being dismantled. Do you know the exact date it closed permanently?

You could argue that when you parked there, not all those signs were there as per their photos due to building work/dismantling of the car park and you put the PPC to strict proof which signs were in place on the date of the PCN. Also, the sign at the entrance is too high for most drivers to see, especially if you are turning left into the car park.

This is just for a POPLA appeal anyway. If you lose that, no big deal. It's not binding on anything and you then enter the "limbo" stage as described in the Newbies thread and wait for an LoC or LBCCC if they ever decide that it is worth pursuing. You can safely ignore any debt collector letters which, as you will know from having read the Newbies thread, are empty threats.

Birkum

B789 said:

There is one picture from Dec 22 when the parking event took place. All the other pictures are from months earlier. You stated that building work had commenced and the car park was already being dismantled. Do you know the exact date it closed permanently?

You could argue that when you parked there, not all those signs were there as per their photos due to building work/dismantling of the car park and you put the PPC to strict proof which signs were in place on the date of the PCN. Also, the sign at the entrance is too high for most drivers to see, especially if you are turning left into the car park.

This is just for a POPLA appeal anyway. If you lose that, no big deal. It's not binding on anything and you then enter the "limbo" stage as described in the Newbies thread and wait for an LoC or LBCCC if they ever decide that it is worth pursuing. You can safely ignore any debt collector letters which, as you will know from having read the Newbies thread, are empty threats.

Thank you B789. I went back on the 29th Jan to take more photos and realised a lot of building work going on with a support structure to climb etc, they would have taken at least a week or more to create that structure hence probably they must have started the work from the first week or at the latest mid of Jan. I do not know the exact date though.

B789

Birkum said:
Thank you B789. I went back on the 29th Jan to take more photos and realised a lot of building work going on with a support structure to climb etc, they would have taken at least a week or more to create that structure hence probably they must have started the work from the first week or at the latest mid of Jan. I do not know the exact date though.

In which case it is of no use for your appeal if it started AFTER you were issued the notice. You should be scouring for things that will aid your appeal and/or future defence.

Coupon-mad

If you already put in your photos showing building work and no signs, then just comment and say ECP have only shown images from nine months ago, which are irrelevant as your appeal already showed that those signs were removed.  It was for ECP to evidence when they were removed (to respond to the point made in the appeal that there were no signs and major building work has started) but they haven't discharged that burden.

Birkum

Thank you Coupon-mad and B789. Coupon-mad they have provided one photo from December 22 that I had attached as part of the photos submitted by the operation in this thread.

Based on your feedback so far, I am planning to write the following as my comment, it will be great to get your final feedback

1. Please notice from all the photos provided by the operator there is no bay parking white lines at all, except few places which are hardly visible
2. The pictures provided by the operator is quite old, please look at the photos I provided as part of my appeal (figure 7 shows no Signage, and Figure 8 and 10 shows construction work starting a couple of weeks after the date I visited the car park and it is possible that signs were removed in anticipation of builder work starting
3. Zoomed out the photo at the beginning of point 7 by the operator shows signage on the periphery, there is no signage in the middle at all
4. The landowner Document in page no 15 shows a start date of 01/05/22. The bottom picture provided by the operator on page 28, and the picture in page 29,  in blue paint and yellow, the writing says we are closed. This is from Poundland shop that closed mid of year, this parking was free and used by Poundland shoppers, I had used before couple of times. Operators should have installed extra signage to notify of this change of ownership. Also please look at the positioning and alignment of these two pay machines, it is impossible to even notice them as it is the far end and turned towards the opposite side and the front of it faces trees and we are closed side of the sign in the photos mentioned above
5. Bottom picture on page 20 shows the parking sign and in front of it is no entry sign. In my appeal figure 9 shows a big wall just before it that obstructs the view to see the parking sign coming from the one-way side

Thank you so much for your help

Coupon-mad

I don't think you should say this:

"...construction work starting a couple of weeks after the date I visited the car park and it is possible that signs were removed in anticipation of builder work starting"

Too vague and you shoot yourself in the foot if you are not clear that you are saying that the work started and the ECP signs had been dismantled BEFORE you parked because they weren't there.
 

...and my words that the operator hasn't discharged their burden.

No point in your #1 IMHO, because your ticket wasn't for being parked out of a bay.

If you write stuff that distracts from the only main point, POPLA will just not get it.

Birkum

Thank you Coupon-mad. I will modify based on your suggestion. The photo below is what concerns me. This is from 1st December (the incident was on the 11th), in this image, there are Signage seen.  

B789

Birkum said:

...and Figure 8 and 10 shows construction work starting a couple of weeks after the date I visited the car park...

How can a photo show "construction starting a couple of weeks after the date I visited the car park"?

Birkum said:

...it is possible that signs were removed in anticipation of builder work starting...

It's  possible that all the signs were obscured by pink elephants. How is that wording of any use in an appeal or a defence? The signs were either there or they weren't. You have to decide what were the facts.

Birkum

B789, Unfortunately I dont know the answer whether signage was there or not. I actually did not remember seeing the signage (nor my wife and daughter saw it), otherwise I would have just moved my car out and put it in the council parking that is just 10 meters from this parking and a very big one. 

When I went back to see the signage after receiving the ticket builder work had started.

They have provided one photo from December that seems to have signage. I think I will maintain the position that Coupon-mad suggested. KIndly let me know if you have any other thoughts please. Thank you so much for all the help.

Coupon-mad

I'd state that the only reason Euro Car Parks (who temporarily in 2022 operated this site remotely, by ANPR, with no manual patrols) would have sent an employee on foot - who took that single image on 1st December - was clearly only to take one photo then dismantle the signage to clear it for the building work. This explains why no signs were there by 11th December, as the appeal stated.

Blah blah...failed to discharge burden...(the wording I originally gave you).