Economy 7 worry

pochase

You are aware that there is no £2500 or £3000 absolute cap?

The £2500 and £3000 are used to calculate the EPG unit rates for gas and single rate electricity based on the Ofgem 2900KWh electricity and 12000KWh gas average, and thereafter the single electricity rate for E7 calculation is calculated using the 58/42 ratio.

dunstonh

So if you have an issue with Martin lewis and "his brand" why are you here posting on this forum?

a) I do not have an issue with him.  This isn't facebook were some low IQ individual thinks that if you disagree with something then you are against everything they stand for.
b) It isn't his forum

Its more than Martin Lewis, Scottish Government agrees with his opinion too. I believe labour have also commented on this.

Scottish Government and Labour are hardly reliable.  Both are prone to jumping on bandwagons, as do any parties in opposition, and the Scottish Government are very good at making a pigs ear of things.  However, Labour doesn't appear to have taken a stance on the E7 issue.  But let us not forget the country's energy policy was set in 2008 under Labour and wasn't changed by any subsequent Government.

Especially since across north of   Scotland with remote areas like north perthshire, Invernesshire, Angus, and places like  Balater and braemar are the coldest parts of the UK. And will use well above the paltry £3000 that the cap is set at for all electric homes. 

There is no £3,000 cap set for all homes.   Perhaps that explains why you don't understand what has happened, despite it being explained.

SnakePlissken

dunstonh said:

So if you have an issue with Martin lewis and "his brand" why are you here posting on this forum?

a) I do not have an issue with him.  This isn't facebook were some low IQ individual thinks that if you disagree with something then you are against everything they stand for.
b) It isn't his forum

Its more than Martin Lewis, Scottish Government agrees with his opinion too. I believe labour have also commented on this.

Scottish Government and Labour are hardly reliable.  Both are prone to jumping on bandwagons, as do any parties in opposition, and the Scottish Government are very good at making a pigs ear of things.  However, Labour doesn't appear to have taken a stance on the E7 issue.  But let us not forget the country's energy policy was set in 2008 under Labour and wasn't changed by any subsequent Government.

Especially since across north of   Scotland with remote areas like north perthshire, Invernesshire, Angus, and places like  Balater and braemar are the coldest parts of the UK. And will use well above the paltry £3000 that the cap is set at for all electric homes. 

There is no £3,000 cap set for all homes.   Perhaps that explains why you don't understand what has happened, despite it being explained.

I do understand.

I know its not capped at 3000. 

The £3000 figure is the value they say average use is  for all electric including heating. It is not a limit on what you will spend but rather an arbitary figure they use.

.......
Edit ....
i meant to say £3000 cap is seperate from value they say for an all electric home average annual usage

The offgem page explains it better than i can try and do..

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/average-gas-and-electricity-use-explained
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you

But average usage for all electric no where near reflect what a house uses on electricheating with several storage heaters.

End of edit
................

And unit prices that everyone pays are based on that arbitary figure.
 Which is nowhere near enough if you live in a cold area with electric heating
The value was obviously based on people in flats rather than houses

This getting way off topic for an emergy forum, but ill reply, your reply has no bearing to what we were discussing...

"Scottish Government and Labour are hardly reliable.  Both are prone to jumping on bandwagons, as do any parties in opposition, and the Scottish Government are very good at making a pigs ear of things"

In Scotland the current main party of Government is an SNP/Green coalition the SNP still outpoll all other parties and have been in government since 2011 and poll figures show they will easily return to poweragain and take majority of westminster seats

So majority of Scotlands voters disagree with your assertion thatthey make a pigs ear of things.

Whilst on subject of governments/ parties who make  a pigs ear of things.
The tory government excels at this with mad liz trashing the economy and also promising help with energy bills that her sucessor has taken away. 

In addition the Torys( ill refer to them as the  pigs ear government from here on in)  or as we say in Scoland 'boggin' have overvlast few years had 4 Prime ministers, presided over...

 brexit shitfest or,  brexshit,  that majority of business's say that has affected the economy and lumped  more costs onto them
Extra red tape due to brexit causing comapnies to cease trading
An inability to actually negotiate with the EU such that peace in NI is at risk
Mishandling of covid emergency
Partying on in 10 downing street whilst the rest of us were in lockdown during covid emergency
PPE scandal with various torys caught comiting corruption at leastand in Mones case fraud being investigated by the police.
The crashing of the housing market as done by Truss along with further economic damage
Running down of the NHS due to lack of investment
Inability to negotatie with NHS unions and causing for the first time nurses to go on strike
Likewise other public sector unions
Sucessive tory  ministers forced to resign in discrace with the latest being Nadhim Zhawi sacked over tax affairs and breaking ministerial code after hiding he was fined by HMRC.
Though he likely get back as other sacked ministers have after doing some time on the back benches

The list is so big i could have probably had 100 lines to this and still not listed all of their "pigs ear" moments.


Boggin is really not an apt description for them bourach is a mair appropiate word.

Or as you orginally said "pigs ear".

Spoonie_Turtle

SnakePlissken said:

dunstonh said:

So if you have an issue with Martin lewis and "his brand" why are you here posting on this forum?

a) I do not have an issue with him.  This isn't facebook were some low IQ individual thinks that if you disagree with something then you are against everything they stand for.
b) It isn't his forum

Its more than Martin Lewis, Scottish Government agrees with his opinion too. I believe labour have also commented on this.

Scottish Government and Labour are hardly reliable.  Both are prone to jumping on bandwagons, as do any parties in opposition, and the Scottish Government are very good at making a pigs ear of things.  However, Labour doesn't appear to have taken a stance on the E7 issue.  But let us not forget the country's energy policy was set in 2008 under Labour and wasn't changed by any subsequent Government.

Especially since across north of   Scotland with remote areas like north perthshire, Invernesshire, Angus, and places like  Balater and braemar are the coldest parts of the UK. And will use well above the paltry £3000 that the cap is set at for all electric homes. 

There is no £3,000 cap set for all homes.   Perhaps that explains why you don't understand what has happened, despite it being explained.

I do understand.

I know its not capped at 3000. 

The £3000 figure is the value they say average use is  for all electric including heating. It is not a limit on what you will spend but rather an arbitary figure they use.
And unit prices that everyone pays are based on that arbitary figure.
 Which is nowhere near enough if you live in a cold area with electric heating
The value was obviously based on people in flats rather than houses

What do you mean? 

The figure they use to work out the single rate equivalent for E7 is 4200kWh, which is the median and obviously is skewed by flats.  That would, at single rate or the exact E7 58% day/42% night split, be £1595.90 with the regional average standing charge* of 46p/day.

£3,000 would equate to approximately 8,330kWh on single rate or if the exact E7 split.

The 8,000+kWh is obviously closer to reality for most people - but the thing about E7 is it allows people to use more and still spend less than on the single rate, if enough of their usage is off-peak and the rate is low enough. 

*yes I know no region actually pays 46p, it's just a statistical average but it's also the figure used to work out the capped unit rates.

SnakePlissken

Spoonie_Turtle said:

SnakePlissken said:

dunstonh said:

So if you have an issue with Martin lewis and "his brand" why are you here posting on this forum?

a) I do not have an issue with him.  This isn't facebook were some low IQ individual thinks that if you disagree with something then you are against everything they stand for.
b) It isn't his forum

Its more than Martin Lewis, Scottish Government agrees with his opinion too. I believe labour have also commented on this.

Scottish Government and Labour are hardly reliable.  Both are prone to jumping on bandwagons, as do any parties in opposition, and the Scottish Government are very good at making a pigs ear of things.  However, Labour doesn't appear to have taken a stance on the E7 issue.  But let us not forget the country's energy policy was set in 2008 under Labour and wasn't changed by any subsequent Government.

Especially since across north of   Scotland with remote areas like north perthshire, Invernesshire, Angus, and places like  Balater and braemar are the coldest parts of the UK. And will use well above the paltry £3000 that the cap is set at for all electric homes. 

There is no £3,000 cap set for all homes.   Perhaps that explains why you don't understand what has happened, despite it being explained.

I do understand.

I know its not capped at 3000. 

The £3000 figure is the value they say average use is  for all electric including heating. It is not a limit on what you will spend but rather an arbitary figure they use.
And unit prices that everyone pays are based on that arbitary figure.
 Which is nowhere near enough if you live in a cold area with electric heating
The value was obviously based on people in flats rather than houses

What do you mean? 

The figure they use to work out the single rate equivalent for E7 is 4200kWh, which is the median and obviously is skewed by flats.  That would, at single rate or the exact E7 58% day/42% night split, be £1595.90 with the regional average standing charge* of 46p/day.

£3,000 would equate to approximately 8,330kWh on single rate or if the exact E7 split.

The 8,000+kWh is obviously closer to reality for most people - but the thing about E7 is it allows people to use more and still spend less than on the single rate, if enough of their usage is off-peak and the rate is low enough. 

*yes I know no region actually pays 46p, it's just a statistical average but it's also the figure used to work out the capped unit rates.

I haveedited original post as i quoted wrong figure

The offgem page explains it better than i can try and do..

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/average-gas-and-electricity-use-explained
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you

But average usage for all electric no where near reflect what a house uses on electric heating with several storage heaters. Around 7000ish kw would be night use alone for a 3 bedroom detached house.

End of edit
................

But like Winston we are helpless to do anything about our plight. Only the government can change the system if they wanted to.

Scot_39

I suspect the confusion is the £3000 referred to is the raw Ofgem cap - and more accutely - the fact it is based on 4200kWh combined for multirate tariffs like E7 - prior to any EPG discount.

And the argument isn't about price - but whether that choice of 4200kWh is truly meaningful. Above mentions median - others have quoted actual size and occupency - smaller with fewer people (over 1, less than 2 for the electric IIRC).

In N Scotland - the MR numbers for DD (other payment) for 4200 kWH are £177.85 SC+£2821.14 = £2998.99 - so £3000.

See Ofgem actaul tariff tables - the regional caps actually sent to suppliers.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-11/Default%20tariff%20cap%20level%20-%201%20January%202023%20-%2031%20March%202023.pdf

But also need to remember that £3000 is only c60% of the DFDD Ofgem cap price of £4279. 

The EPG then calculated - then reduces the actual kWh units charged - for gas and electric - to get the nominal DF DD c£4279 to c£2500.   

MR users then get the same discount (31.8p) as others on SR not SVT get on fixes (subject to cap and floor) - so that the MR Ofgem nominal c£3000 reduces to c£1600.

Spoonie_Turtle

Scot_39 said:

See Ofgem actaul tariff tables - the regional caps actually sent to suppliers.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-11/Default%20tariff%20cap%20level%20-%201%20January%202023%20-%2031%20March%202023.pdf

Very interesting to see 3,100kWh as the typical dual-fuel electricity consumption, then only an extra 1,100kWh for hot water and heating for multi-rate users - most likely because it is skewed towards flats with 1 or 2 people, so the electricity used for everything else is lower within that statistic.  

Definitely nowhere near reality for all-electric houses - if most off-gas areas historically used alternative fuels (*if*, I don't know whether that is the case) then all-electric houses would have been outliers.  I wonder what will happen if/when they decide to update the values, with more heat pumps and people charging EVs.  

diystarter7

SnakePlissken said:

dunstonh said:

I disagree with you and so does Martin Lewis who has been in discussions with energy companies over the 7.5% rise as being unfair. 

Martin Lewis will jump on any bandwagon that suits his brand.     Some of those he supports do not deserve it and do not stand up to scrutiny.   However, if its popular (even if wrong)  then he will often support it.

E7 increased due to an error that resulted in E7 users getting 3 months of cheaper rates than they should have.  They were brought in line with single rate users.   So, how has any E7 user lost out and how is it unfair?

Single rate users should be complaining that it was unfair that E7 users got a slightly better rate for 3 months.

So if you have an issue with Martin lewis and "his brand" why are you here posting on this forum?


Its more than Martin Lewis, Scottish Government agrees with his opinion too. I believe labour have also commented on this.

And given a high proportion of E7 or as it used to be know in Scotland white meter users are there and use this predominately for heating, compared to electricity users who use gas they pay substantialy more in heating.
Especially since across north of   Scotland with remote areas like north perthshire, Invernesshire, Angus, and places like  Balater and braemar are the coldest parts of the UK. And will use well above the paltry £3000 that the cap is set at for all electric homes. 

Hi

The poster you refer to is entitled to an opinion and disagree as this in NOT a breach of the T&C's here.

I often agree with Martin but not always and just because someone disagrees with Martin Lewis, I'm sure he will say that is great as no one ever will have everyone agreeing with them.

E7, any tariff for that matter, the supplier is there to make money and like any rate these too can vary

Thnaks

pensionpawn

pochase said:

Scot_39 said:

Or in even simpler terms - the price of heating by gas has remained near constant 

The price of heating for electric on E7 (or E10 etc) has for many not.  That 7.6% was total bill - not the individual rates.

With the above example reported my MSE a whopping 17.5%.

If anything like that sort of rise - even the average 7.6% annually -  had happened to c78%,  around 22m,of uk homes with GCH - it would have been daily headline news.

E7 customers did receive an additional discount in October.

In January they were brought onto the the same level as the single rate customers. So yes they pay more than they did in October, but no they did not get an unfair increase, they were just brought onto the same level single rate users were paying already since October.

Instead of being happy that you paid less for three month, you are now complaining that you are paying the same as everybody else.

Regardless of detail the underlying fact is that the E7 tariff has changed in a way that could result in many households moving their energy usage from the night to the day. Whether the price changes are justified or not, fair or not, it's probably not in the national interest to foster a situation that could increase peak daytime demand.

Scot_39

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Scot_39 said:

See Ofgem actaul tariff tables - the regional caps actually sent to suppliers.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-11/Default%20tariff%20cap%20level%20-%201%20January%202023%20-%2031%20March%202023.pdf

Very interesting to see 3,100kWh as the typical dual-fuel electricity consumption, then only an extra 1,100kWh for hot water and heating for multi-rate users - most likely because it is skewed towards flats with 1 or 2 people, so the electricity used for everything else is lower within that statistic.  

Definitely nowhere near reality for all-electric houses - if most off-gas areas historically used alternative fuels (*if*, I don't know whether that is the case) then all-electric houses would have been outliers.  I wonder what will happen if/when they decide to update the values, with more heat pumps and people charging EVs.  

If it was like for like - that would be  2900 and 1300 - even although the tables are still for 3100.

The standard allowances - the TDCV (Typical Domestic Consumption Values) are 2900 SRE, 12000 G and 4200 MRE

So I believe

DFDD should be - SRE NIL charge (SC) + SRE 3100*29/31 + Gas NIL (SC) + Gas 12000kWh

The DF DD headline / TDCV are based on the "Medium" profile quoted here

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/average-gas-and-electricity-use-explained 

It may be the MR is based more on low - so 1800 and therefore 2400 for heating.

But that is still woefully below the 8000kWh allowed for gas if so - even with an ancient 60% efficient boiler - that's gettting on for almost double at 4800kWh heat - let alone amodern one at 90%+ (so 7200 kWh - 3x the output).