Council and Care Home Fees Query

Plasticomo

My dad passed away mid November. My mum is in a care home and the estate is in probate at the moment Just over three months prior he changed the status of ownership for his house to tenants in common.  Hopefully that will go through ok without being challenged. My mum now has to meet the cost of her care home from her half of the fees from early February.

We cant get a disabled taxi for love nor money at the moment and we had to hire a mini bus at 180 quid to get mum to the funeral. What I want to know is, are we allowed to purchase a disabled access vehicle for her from her money so that she can be taken for days out or will this be seen as deprivation of assets. She is mentally alert although power of attorney is in place if needed. She is just physically not able to stand. She is also asking if she can give some to us. I know this can be done within the normal tax year (about £3,000?) but again would this be seen as disposal of assets or allowed within the same tax rules. She has mentioned paying for her funeral up front. Would this also be allowed do you think?

Brie

The council had no problem with us being paid a monthly amount to look after MiL when she lived with us and didn't query small amounts that were spent on her behalf.  I think that as long as they know that the vehicle is substantially for her benefit there wouldn't be an issue.  Obviously it needs to be suitable for her - so a decent size car she can easily get in and out of rather than a collectible vintage MG or whatever.  You might want to tell her to stick to basics for birthday and Christmas presents - I think there's a suggested amount listed somewhere - like £50 for birthdays & £100 for Christmas and something more for weddings etc.

I can't imagine how the council could object to a prepaid funeral plan.  It might be a good idea to ask them what they consider appropriate as some councils may vary.

p00hsticks

Plasticomo said:

My dad passed away mid November. My mum is in a care home and the estate is in probate at the moment Just over three months prior he changed the status of ownership for his house to tenants in common.  Hopefully that will go through ok without being challenged.

You refer to 'his' house - do you mean it was previously owned by your mother and father as joint tenants ?

Who did your father leave his estate to in his will ?

Plasticomo said:

 My mum now has to meet the cost of her care home from her half of the fees from early February.

Do you think that she will be able to meet the full cost of the care home for the foreseeable future from that share ? If so,  then the Local Authority won't be interested in what she does with the money. It;'s only if she spends or gives it away so much that she is no longer able to pay for her own care and needs to be funded by the Local Authority that 'deprivation of assets' will be considered. It sounds as if you think that that may be the case...

Plasticomo said:

We cant get a disabled taxi for love nor money at the moment and we had to hire a mini bus at 180 quid to get mum to the funeral. What I want to know is, are we allowed to purchase a disabled access vehicle for her from her money so that she can be taken for days out or will this be seen as deprivation of assets.

Have you tried asking the care home whether they have such a vehicle that you could hire or borrow ? They must have to take residents for medical treatment etc so I would expect to either own such a vehicley or know where you could hire one from.

£180 seems a lot of money, for a one off, but may be more cost-effective than actually buying a vehicle and having to pay for MOT, servicing, insurance etc.... have you done the sums ?

Keep_pedalling

Based on a previous thread it her share of the house is around £70k which is not a lot as far as residential care costs are concerned, and she cant start making large gifts now. The £3000 thing is only of relevance for people with assets approaching or in IHT territory anything other than normal birthday and Christmas presents is definitely deprivation of assets. You buying a car with her money is likely to be treated the same way.

Pennylane

I wonder why your Dad changed to Tenants in Common?  I have literally been discussing this with a Solicitor today when drafting our Wills.  Also a week ago I discussed it with another solicitor.  

p00hsticks

Pennylane said:

I wonder why your Dad changed to Tenants in Common?  I have literally been discussing this with a Solicitor today when drafting our Wills.  Also a week ago I discussed it with another solicitor.  

The usual reason is to avoid the money going in care home fees. Assuming that mother and father previously owned the property as joint tenants, then on the fathers death it would have automatically passed to the mother and and so potentially would have to be used to pay her care fees. Whereas if, in addition to severing the joint tenancy to make it tenants in common, the father had also made a will leaving his estate to children then it wouldn't be the mothers and couldn;t be used for her care.

Hence why I asked if the father had made a will and if so who he had named as his beneficiaries.

There is a potential downside to this strategy, in that it means that at least part of the IHT allowance for the first spouse to die is  used up and so isn't avaialbel to be transferred and used on the second death.

Pennylane

p00hsticks said:

Pennylane said:

I wonder why your Dad changed to Tenants in Common?  I have literally been discussing this with a Solicitor today when drafting our Wills.  Also a week ago I discussed it with another solicitor.  

The usual reason is to avoid the money going in care home fees. Assuming that mother and father previously owned the property as joint tenants, then on the fathers death it would have automatically passed to the mother and and so potentially would have to be used to pay her care fees. Whereas if, in addition to severing the joint tenancy to make it tenants in common, the father had also made a will leaving his estate to children then it wouldn't be the mothers and couldn;t be used for her care.

Hence why I asked if the father had made a will and if so who he had named as his beneficiaries.

There is a potential downside to this strategy, in that it means that at least part of the IHT allowance for the first spouse to die is  used up and so isn't avaialbel to be transferred and used on the second death.

Last week’s solicitor thought it was a bad idea to change to TIC and said DSS are on to it.  Today’s solicitor said the same and pointed out that if one spouse had to go into care and the other still lived in the jointly owned home then DSS couldn’t make them sell the house anyway.  

Mojisola

Pennylane said:

Last week’s solicitor thought it was a bad idea to change to TIC and said DSS are on to it. 

Today’s solicitor said the same and pointed out that if one spouse had to go into care and the other still lived in the jointly owned home then DSS couldn’t make them sell the house anyway.  

The council are the ones who fund care homes - the DSS hasn't been around for years - they can't challenge this arrangement because the surviving spouse hasn't given away any capital - they just haven't received it from their deceased spouse/partner.
This is an arrangement to cover the eventuality that the surviving spouse needs residential care, not the one your solicitor describes.

Savvy_Sue

Plasticomo said:

We cant get a disabled taxi for love nor money at the moment and we had to hire a mini bus at 180 quid to get mum to the funeral.

I don't know where you are, but in London the care home pointed out that all taxis have to be able to take a wheelchair. And MiL has special vouchers, from the local authority, to get a discount when using ComCabs. They seem to exist in other parts of the country - you may have tried this possibility though but worth mentioning it for others. 

Having said that, on one occasion when we pre-booked one, the text messages swung from "your driver is on his way but running late" to "we're trying to find a driver for you", and eventually we gave up. 

There is a company which will hire vehicles which will take a wheelchair: we looked into it for the Christmas period but for the amount of use we wanted to make of it, it wasn't the answer.

Pre-paying for a funeral is absolutely allowed: it's explicitly set out as one of the things you can do which won't be seen as deprivation of assets. 

p00hsticks

Pennylane said:

p00hsticks said:

Pennylane said:

I wonder why your Dad changed to Tenants in Common?  I have literally been discussing this with a Solicitor today when drafting our Wills.  Also a week ago I discussed it with another solicitor.  

The usual reason is to avoid the money going in care home fees. Assuming that mother and father previously owned the property as joint tenants, then on the fathers death it would have automatically passed to the mother and and so potentially would have to be used to pay her care fees. Whereas if, in addition to severing the joint tenancy to make it tenants in common, the father had also made a will leaving his estate to children then it wouldn't be the mothers and couldn;t be used for her care.

Hence why I asked if the father had made a will and if so who he had named as his beneficiaries.

There is a potential downside to this strategy, in that it means that at least part of the IHT allowance for the first spouse to die is  used up and so isn't avaialbel to be transferred and used on the second death.

Last week’s solicitor thought it was a bad idea to change to TIC and said DSS are on to it.  Today’s solicitor said the same and pointed out that if one spouse had to go into care and the other still lived in the jointly owned home then DSS couldn’t make them sell the house anyway.  

In the OP's case though, the mother is already in a care home, so there is more of an financial argument for the father changing from JT to TIC and bequeathing his assets to other than his spouse if he was in bad health and likely to die before the mother. The downside is that it potentially leaves the mother unable to fund her own care and so potentially with less options as to where that care is provided.

As Mojisola points out, care provison is dealt with by Local Authorities, not DWP (the sucessors to the DSS), and IMO it;s difficult to see how a move from JT to TIC could be considered as a deprivation of assets.

another common reason for opting for TIC rather than JT house ownership these days is when there are children from previous relationships. If each party owns halfs of the house as TIC , they can ensure their children get an inheritance by willing it to them, although possibly with some form of lifetime trust to enable the spouse to continue living in the house as long as they wish.

Pennylane

Mojisola said:

Pennylane said:

Last week’s solicitor thought it was a bad idea to change to TIC and said DSS are on to it. 

Today’s solicitor said the same and pointed out that if one spouse had to go into care and the other still lived in the jointly owned home then DSS couldn’t make them sell the house anyway.  

The council are the ones who fund care homes - the DSS hasn't been around for years - they can't challenge this arrangement because the surviving spouse hasn't given away any capital - they just haven't received it from their deceased spouse/partner.
This is an arrangement to cover the eventuality that the surviving spouse needs residential care, not the one your solicitor describes.

yes, I’m sorry, what she said was “the authorities are on to this”.