FPN for littering in the local area, 2 streets away

ifti

We recieved a fine in the post for Littering 2 streets away from our house, we have two wheelie bins, one black and one blue, both never full.

I fail to understand how one of our black bags ended up 2 streets away from our home, plus with our name and address on it, i have always crossed it off and put in recycling never in a black bin bag, I have asked for evidence a few times but the LAS Support are refusing to provide it.

For the record i was asleep at the time of the FPN and have also mentioned this but they are acting like bunch of thugs!

Our communication with them is below, would like advice on how to take this in front of a magistrates.

Our intial repy 19th December 2022

Dear Sir/Madam
I am writing to you regarding the above-mentioned Fixed Penalty Notice
I would like to clarify a few points on my behalf.
Firstly, I would like to let you know I was actually asleep at 8.37am in my home,I have a home CCTV installed which shows I did not leave my home on thealleged day at the alleged time, I therefore have no idea how you can accuse me of this offence.
Secondly, I would like to see photographic or video evidence regarding thisoffence as I would like to know how or who gave you my name and address as I feel someone is trying to frame me.

I feel you are just trying to target innocent residents into paying up for a 2/3 monthold incident which some do not remember or do not have proof of.

Kind Regards

LAS Support Reply 6th January 2023

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding your Fixed Penalty Noti ce. After reviewing your comments and the evidence available I am satisfied that the Fixed Penalty Notice was issuedcorrectly.
The FPN was issued as waste was left out, outside the collecti on time for your area. Evidence was found within a black sack which linked the waste to you at your address.
Our officers patrol public places in areas where littering is prevalent and are instructed to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice once they have witnessed a littering act. They have no discretion in this matter and are working to our directions. This ensures they are consistent towards people when issuing apenalty notice.
There are no formal grounds of appeal against a Fixed Penalty Notice. If you wish to dispute the notice, you have the right to appeal via the Magistrates Court. Therefore, your appeal has been declined. As a gesture of goodwill, I have granted an extension until 28th January 2023
for fullpayment to be made.

If you wish to provide further evidence relating to your representation, please provide this before 13th January 2023 so an appropriate and informed decision can be made whilst doing further investigation.

Kind regards,


Our Reply 9th January 2023

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your email dated 06th January 2023.
Firstly, further to your initial letter dated 13 December 2022 where you state an'Ealing Council Witnessed' myself committing an offence on 28th October 2022 at 08:37, I asked you to provide evidence of this offense but you have not done so. I understand that every authorised officer had a body camera attached to them so I fail to understand as to why this has not been provided. I would like to view physical video evidence of where the officer has seen me dump the black bag and the named location.
Secondly; your reply dated 06th January 2023 now mentions that you have found something that links me to some dumped waste, so again I would like to request that you provide me evidence of the item that was found in the dump rubbish and evidence that shows me dumping this black bag.
I can not understand why this was not mentioned in the original letter dated 13th December 2022.
I have lived in this area for over 35 years, I have difficulty walking and I have my very own black & blue wheelie bin.
I am sure you can understand by using common sense, it would be very foolish of me to dump any of my rubbish on the street when I could use my very own black bin but for some very strange reason you have come to the conclusion Ihave taken that my own personal waste bag fromy my home and put it on a street while linking it to myself.
I fail to understand as to how a FPN can be issued to someone when there is no physical evidence to support that the alleged person actually placed the rubbish where it was found.
For example; I can print a letter with my neighbours details and then dump this in a black bag at the end of the street; i then ask you will this also issue them a FPN?
I again would like to state that I can provide CCTV Footage for the day on 28th October between the hours of 08:00 till 14:00 where you will find I did not leave my home.
I am surprised that you do not have an appeal process for FPN like you do for PCN and forcing residents to revert to Court for justice especially at a time ofwhen we are all financially struggling.

Kind Regards

LAS Support Reply 10th January 2023

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding your Fixed Penalty Noti ce. After reviewing your comments and the evidence available I am satisfied that the Fixed Penalty Notice was issued correctly.
The legislation relating to a littering offence states that a person is guilty of an offence if that person throws down, drops or otherwise deposits in and leaves anything whatsoever in such circumstances
as to cause, or contribute to, or tend to lead to, the defacement by litter of any place to which this section applies.
The Body Worn Camera footage recorded is that of the interaction between yourself and the officer,and not of the offence occurring. This is in order to safeguard both parties and ensure that the integrity of both parties can be verified via review of the footage if required
at a later date.
The BodyWorn Camera footage on which evidence is recorded will be disclosed should the case proceed totrial.
A Fixed Penalty Notice is issued to offenders to give them the opportunity to discharge liability for prosecution. You can discharge your liability to prosecution for the offence of littering under section 87 of the Environmental Protecti on Act 1990 by payment of the Fixed Penalty Notice or request a court date to have your case heard in the magistrate’s court to appeal the littering offence.

When an offence is witnessed the options available are to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice to an offender or to proceed the case directly through to prosecution. Our officers patrol public places ina reas where littering is prevalent and are instructed to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice once they have witnessed a littering act. They have no discretion in this matter and are working to our directions. This ensures they are consistent towards people when issuing a penalty notice.
As for you are requesting the body worn camera footage, if you can fill in the attached Subject Access Request form and provide us with 2 forms of ID (such as photographic ID and proof ofaddress) so we can
look into actioning your request.
Please note, your request for footage is a separate representation to your dispute and does not put your fixed penalty notice on hold.
If you wish to provide further evidence relating to your representation, please provide this before 13th January 2023 so an appropriate and informed decision can be made whilst doing further investigation.

Kind regards,

Our Reply 13th January 2023

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your email

If I understand all your correspondence correctly relating to this FPN and to sum everything up; your first letter dated 13th December 2022 initially mentioned Officer XXX has reason to believe that I committed an offence and witnessed myself dumping of a black bag in a specific location.
When I question this and wrote to you on the 19th December 2023, your reply on 6th January 2023 stated that you have found some evidence linking the above black bag to the myself. Once again, I asked for evidence for this and your reply on 10th January 2023 now states that you do not have any evidence of the offence, but body worn footage of my interaction with the officer.
I would like to clarify for your record of the below extract from your
recent email :
“The legislation relating to a littering offence states that a person is guilty of anoffence if that person throws down, drops or otherwise deposits in and leaves anything whatsoever in such circumstances as to cause, or contribute to, ortend to lead to, the defacement by litter of any place to which this section applies.
The Body Worn Camera footage recorded is that of the interaction between yourself and the officer, and not of the offence occurring. This is in order to safeguard both parties and ensure that the integrity of both parties can be verified via review of the footage if required at a later
date. The Body Worn Camera footage on which evidence is recorded will be disclosed should the case proceed to trial."
So the legislation states that you need to have evidence of me committing the said offence and you clearly have stated in your responses that you do not have this, except body worn camera of my interaction with a officer.
You have asked for evidence for my representation and at this moment in time I can send you a CCTV screenshot of what is visible from my CCTV, I have downloaded the footage from the whole day and it is around 14GB of data.
I have the full video which will be represented in front of the magistrate’s court.
I still fail to understand how you wish to could prove this case in court without any satisfactory evidence in your possession but anyhow I would like to request a magistrate’s court date as soon as possible
I will be filling in Subject Access Request closer to the court date and upon seeing my identification you will then realise that infact you have the wrong person, I indeed was asleep when this so-called interaction occurred.

Kind Regards.

LAS Support Reply 13th January 2023

Please see last email for clarity,

*Statements in regards to body worn camera footage were sent in error and inrelation to separate littering offences.
Fly tipping runs in accordance with the Environmental Protection Act 1990 Secti on 33 which prohibits the deposit of controlled waste, or knowingly cause or knowingly permit controlled waste to be deposited in or on any land unless an environmental permit authorising the deposit is in force and the deposit is in accordance with the license.
To reiterate, as a gesture of goodwill, I have granted an extension until 13th January 2023 for fullpayment to be made.

Unless you wish to submit any further evidence to support your representation this will be my full and final response.

Kind regards

Nearlyold

The Council aren't saying that their Enforcement Officer saw you dump the black sack, their first letter to you makes this clear:-

"The FPN was issued as waste was left out, outside the collection time for your area. Evidence was found within a black sack which linked the waste to you at your address." 

They're saying they found a black bin bag where it shouldn't be (or at a time when it shouldn't be) and on searching the bag found evidence (such as an envelope perhaps with your address on it) that it came from your property.

Searching fly tipped rubbish for evidence of where it came from is standard practice as is taking a photograph of the rubbish and any evidence of the address of the source

Your responses about being in bed at the time the alleged offence occurred and talking about body cam footage just confused the matter leading to the irrelevant reply from the council about access rights to footage.

If it goes to Court and you're confident the Council has no actual evidence to show it was your rubbish then it's an easy win for you.



 

strawb_shortcake

Could be that a letter addressed to you was delivered to a neighbour and they put it in the black sack? Not sure you could ever prove this or use the theory to remove the FPN

ifti

Nearlyold said:

The Council aren't saying that their Enforcement Officer saw you dump the black sack, their first letter to you makes this clear:-

"The FPN was issued as waste was left out, outside the collection time for your area. Evidence was found within a black sack which linked the waste to you at your address." 

They're saying they found a black bin bag where it shouldn't be (or at a time when it shouldn't be) and on searching the bag found evidence (such as an envelope perhaps with your address on it) that it it came from your property.

Searching fly tipped rubbish for evidence of where it came from is standard practice as is taking a photograph of the rubbish and any evidence of the address of the source

Your responses about being in bed at the time the alleged offence occurred and talking about body cam footage just confused the matter leading to the irrelevant reply from the council about access rights to footage.

If it goes to Court and you're confident the Council has no actual evidence to show it was your rubbish then it's an easy win for you.



 

Thank you for your reply,

I do not know what the council actually has, it maybe a piece of paper with my name on it, i failt to understand where it could actually have come from as it wasent me, i live two streets away and would use my own bins, maybe even written by someone and placed in a black bag, or an invoice of some sort.

This can happen to anyone, so i am not sure what to do and £150 is no joke, tomorrow i could get one from a different council and so on.

macman

Fox or another animal dragged it from your bin? Though unlikely to carry it two streets away.

Aylesbury_Duck

You asked for advice about how to take it to court. Isn't it simply a case of not paying and then if it does progress to court, you present your evidence?

nyermen

macman said:

Fox or another animal dragged it from your bin? Though unlikely to carry it two streets away.

I'd have thought more likely either passing people playing silly (assuming you're on a road rather than a close) or some sort of mistake by the bin removal people.

Is an address on a piece of paper considered sufficient proof of ownership of the bag?  Just curious because anyone could print out something real, just replacing the address with someone they want to wrong, and then dump it in some rubbish.
If someone really wants to flytip, I doubt theyre the ones leaving incriminating evidence.

Brie

Someone could have stolen your garbage hoping to find bank statements or whatever might be useful for committing fraud and ended up dumping the bag somewhere.  

Bin collectors might have emptied your bin but then managed to drop a bag a couple of blocks over.

Personally I'd like to see this go to court as I doubt anyone would take the council seriously if they pushed things that far.

And given that they've changed what they say they have as evidence that doesn't help their case too much.  It'd be great if there was photos from the body cam of an official which shows some suspicious looking individual dropping the bag somewhere that could be compared to the OP who might be 30 years older and look admirably respectable.

lincroft1710

Ealing Council. OP, you have my sympathies

Nearlyold

Brie said:

Someone could have stolen your garbage hoping to find bank statements or whatever might be useful for committing fraud and ended up dumping the bag somewhere.  

Bin collectors might have emptied your bin but then managed to drop a bag a couple of blocks over.

Personally I'd like to see this go to court as I doubt anyone would take the council seriously if they pushed things that far.

And given that they've changed what they say they have as evidence that doesn't help their case too much.  It'd be great if there was photos from the body cam of an official which shows some suspicious looking individual dropping the bag somewhere that could be compared to the OP who might be 30 years older and look admirably respectable.

There is no body cam footage, talk of body cams was introduced by the OP in his second letter to the  council. The council then sent a standard reply to the OP's request to see the body cam footage without checking whether it was relevant.

user1977

Aylesbury_Duck said:

You asked for advice about how to take it to court. Isn't it simply a case of not paying and then if it does progress to court, you present your evidence?

"If" being the operative word - given how many more serious crimes are dropped before going to court, I suspect not that many allegations of littering make it to court, especially if the council knows that the accused is disputing it and seems to have a rational defence.