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FPN for littering in the local area, 2 streets away

135

Comments

  • I would also forget about any threats of prosecution.

    I would also be making a formal complaint.
    The letter you were sent clearly states " you were witnesses" when that isn't the case.
    Making false statement to indue a payment is a big no-no.
    Let's Be Careful Out There
  • sheramber
    sheramber Posts: 20,914 Forumite
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    ifti said:
    RhondaD said:
    Forget about cameras and being asleep at the time. It sounds like they just found some rubbish a couple of streets away with some correspondence in it with your address on. In theory a letter addressed to you could have been posted to the wrong address (it happens a lot) and they just binned it then dumped their rubbish. In going through it the letter was found and you now become the dumper as a result because your address was with the rubbish in the bag. In that case the only evidence they will need is a piece of correspondence with your details on, and it sounds like that's what they have. 

    i still dont umderstand how they actualy planning to prove it was me who actually dumped it, i did mention whats to stop me dumping some rubbish linking it to frame my neighbour, theres only one i dont like ?

    i havent heard anything back for a few days now, maybe in 3 months they may actually send somthing to procesute me!


    They might well do.

    Make sure you come back and tell us if they do.
  • RhondaD
    RhondaD Posts: 105 Forumite
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    edited 19 January 2023 at 5:09PM
    ifti said:
    RhondaD said:
    Forget about cameras and being asleep at the time. It sounds like they just found some rubbish a couple of streets away with some correspondence in it with your address on. In theory a letter addressed to you could have been posted to the wrong address (it happens a lot) and they just binned it then dumped their rubbish. In going through it the letter was found and you now become the dumper as a result because your address was with the rubbish in the bag. In that case the only evidence they will need is a piece of correspondence with your details on, and it sounds like that's what they have. 

    i still dont umderstand how they actualy planning to prove it was me who actually dumped it, i did mention whats to stop me dumping some rubbish linking it to frame my neighbour, theres only one i dont like ?

    i havent heard anything back for a few days now, maybe in 3 months they may actually send somthing to procesute me!


    They don't have to prove it was you who actually dumped it, that's the whole point. The presence of your address Inside the rubbish will be deemed as evidence of guilt. This is how they prosecute people who pay someone to dump stuff for them. They go through the rubbish looking for anything with a name and or address and the court will accept that evidence. Unfair but if you are expecting them to show up at court with a picture of you personally dumping the rubbish then you are going to be disappointed.
  • sheramber
    sheramber Posts: 20,914 Forumite
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    The  legislation states that you are responsible for ensuring that your waste is disposed of correctly which is why you do not need to have  done it personally.  

  • sheramber said:
    The  legislation states that you are responsible for ensuring that your waste is disposed of correctly which is why you do not need to have  done it personally.  
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/87  (correct section this time)
    A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it.

    The OP claims "he" neither threw down, dropped or otherwise deposited of said litter and "he" did disposed of correctly.


    If it was as simple as just removing a black bag from someones bin  and dumping it, thereby getting that person a fine, I think there would be a glut of them when neighbour disputes get nasty.








    Let's Be Careful Out There
  • Nearlyold
    Nearlyold Posts: 2,356 Forumite
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    edited 19 January 2023 at 10:07PM

    sheramber said:
    The  legislation states that you are responsible for ensuring that your waste is disposed of correctly which is why you do not need to have  done it personally.  
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/87  (correct section this time)
    A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it.

    The OP claims "he" neither threw down, dropped or otherwise deposited of said litter and "he" did disposed of correctly.


    If it was as simple as just removing a black bag from someones bin  and dumping it, thereby getting that person a fine, I think there would be a glut of them when neighbour disputes get nasty.








    You don't have to witnessed in the act of dumping rubbish to be fined:- https://www.northlincs.gov.uk/news/two-people-fined-for-dumped-rubbish/
  • Ditzy_Mitzy
    Ditzy_Mitzy Posts: 1,911 Forumite
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    sheramber said:
    The  legislation states that you are responsible for ensuring that your waste is disposed of correctly which is why you do not need to have  done it personally.  
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/87  (correct section this time)
    A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it.

    The OP claims "he" neither threw down, dropped or otherwise deposited of said litter and "he" did disposed of correctly.


    If it was as simple as just removing a black bag from someones bin  and dumping it, thereby getting that person a fine, I think there would be a glut of them when neighbour disputes get nasty.








    There is some doubt legally, I believe, as to whether littering is or is not a strict liability offence.  If it is - in theory - the OP could be prosecuted on the basis that 'his' litter has been found in the street.  There are potentially all sorts of hurdles such a prosecution could fall at, but such a case would need to be brought for the strict liability principle to be tested.  I don't think it has been to date.  

    My advice would be to let sleeping dogs lie on this one.  I certainly wouldn't be making a complaint now the other party has gone silent.  
  • Nearlyold said:
    You don't have to witnessed in the act of dumping rubbish to be fined:- https://www.northlincs.gov.uk/news/two-people-fined-for-dumped-rubbish/
    I've read it, but neither of these pertains to what the OP has stated
    One person admitted paying someone to dump it  (that is an offense, and I would never say otherwise)
    Second person paid the fine,  so is unknown if he dumped the bags (or got someone else to do it)  or for whatever reason paid up.

    What needs to be found to prove your point is someone that denies guilt and is convicted  solely on what is contained in the bag.  
    Let's Be Careful Out There
  • Ectophile said:
     Environmental Protection Act 1990 Secti on 33 which prohibits the deposit of controlled waste, or knowingly cause or knowingly permit controlled waste to be deposited in or on any land unless an environmental permit authorising the deposit is in force and the deposit is in accordance with the license.
    So seems they have no prove you deposited the bag.

    So for second part  they need to prove that  you knew your bag would be dumped there.
    This could be that you let someone take the bag and you have a reasonable believe that it would be dumped.
    So even if you gave the neighbor the bag in believe they would put in their bin, but they just dumped it, you aren't liable.

    If all the council has is a name in a bag, then at best they are sabre rattling, at worse they are knowingly issuing penalties that have no basis in law.


     


    Section 33 is about controlled substances.  So unless the OP has been disposing of hazardous waste, I don't see how it's relevant.

    Section 87 deals with littering.
    ifti said:

    this shows us they dont have a clue about the Enviromential Protection Act.

    That was my mistake,   on reading your scans  the FPN does say section 87,  sorry for any confusion

    But they still need to prove it was you dumping the sack there or had believe that you knew it would be dumped there.
    @HillStreetBlues -  but you weren't mistaken, were you?

    Although the FPN refers to a litter offence under s87, the email from the council dated 13 January refers (for some unknown reason) to fly-tipping under s33 which has nothing to do with the FPN.

    Terribly poor communication all round from Ealing...
  • HillStreetBlues
    HillStreetBlues Posts: 4,993 Forumite
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    edited 20 January 2023 at 12:07PM
    Good spot
    I did wonder why I linked to the incorrect section, when rechecked I just looked at the FPN.

    So to try and get OP to pay FPN  they have lied about being witnessed and quoting S87 that has a a much higher sentence limit.
    Let's Be Careful Out There
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