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FPN for littering in the local area, 2 streets away

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Comments

  • ifti said:
    Hi, everyone, thank you to all for the awesome replies, we have external CCTV and i cant see anyone taking any of our black bags out, even then i always cross out the name and address and put in recycling and not black bin.
    Our waste is picked up on Mondays and black bin is every fornightly.
    Lets see what happens in the next few weeks.
    Did you raise a formal complaint about them lying to you trying to induce payment?
    Let's Be Careful Out There
  • ifti
    ifti Posts: 349 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 100 Posts Combo Breaker
    So after being told by the local councilor our fine was cancelled we recieved another letter from LAS

    not sure what is going on at the moment

  • Do you have written proof from your local councillor that the ticket was cancelled?
  • user1977
    user1977 Posts: 16,722 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Sixth Anniversary Photogenic Name Dropper
    Point out to them that you have responded to their previous correspondence...
  • ifti
    ifti Posts: 349 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 100 Posts Combo Breaker
    dil1976 said:
    Do you have written proof from your local councillor that the ticket was cancelled?

    yes a text message, probably worthless in court, she is still looking into it though
  • ifti said:
    dil1976 said:
    Do you have written proof from your local councillor that the ticket was cancelled?

    yes a text message, probably worthless in court, she is still looking into it though
    Don't think it would matter if going to court.

    You wouldn't be defending yourself by saying you thought the ticket was cancelled, you would be defending yourself by saying you didn't do it.
    Let's Be Careful Out There
  • Jumblebumble
    Jumblebumble Posts: 1,933 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    ifti said:
    We recieved a fine in the post for Littering 2 streets away from our house, we have two wheelie bins, one black and one blue, both never full.
    I fail to understand how one of our black bags ended up 2 streets away from our home, plus with our name and address on it, i have always crossed it off and put in recycling never in a black bin bag, I have asked for evidence a few times but the LAS Support are refusing to provide it.

    For the record i was asleep at the time of the FPN and have also mentioned this but they are acting like bunch of thugs!

    Our communication with them is below, would like advice on how to take this in front of a magistrates.

    Our intial repy 19th December 2022

    Dear Sir/Madam
    I am writing to you regarding the above-mentioned Fixed Penalty Notice
    I would like to clarify a few points on my behalf.
    Firstly, I would like to let you know I was actually asleep at 8.37am in my home,I have a home CCTV installed which shows I did not leave my home on thealleged day at the alleged time, I therefore have no idea how you can accuse me of this offence.
    Secondly, I would like to see photographic or video evidence regarding thisoffence as I would like to know how or who gave you my name and address as I feel someone is trying to frame me.

    I feel you are just trying to target innocent residents into paying up for a 2/3 monthold incident which some do not remember or do not have proof of.

    Kind Regards

    LAS Support Reply 6th January 2023

    Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding your Fixed Penalty Noti ce. After reviewing your comments and the evidence available I am satisfied that the Fixed Penalty Notice was issuedcorrectly.
    The FPN was issued as waste was left out, outside the collecti on time for your area. Evidence was found within a black sack which linked the waste to you at your address.
    Our officers patrol public places in areas where littering is prevalent and are instructed to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice once they have witnessed a littering act. They have no discretion in this matter and are working to our directions. This ensures they are consistent towards people when issuing apenalty notice.
    There are no formal grounds of appeal against a Fixed Penalty Notice. If you wish to dispute the notice, you have the right to appeal via the Magistrates Court. Therefore, your appeal has been declined. As a gesture of goodwill, I have granted an extension until 28th January 2023
    for fullpayment to be made.

    If you wish to provide further evidence relating to your representation, please provide this before 13th January 2023 so an appropriate and informed decision can be made whilst doing further investigation.

    Kind regards,


    Our Reply 9th January 2023

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Thank you for your email dated 06th January 2023.
    Firstly, further to your initial letter dated 13 December 2022 where you state an'Ealing Council Witnessed' myself committing an offence on 28th October 2022 at 08:37, I asked you to provide evidence of this offense but you have not done so. I understand that every authorised officer had a body camera attached to them so I fail to understand as to why this has not been provided. I would like to view physical video evidence of where the officer has seen me dump the black bag and the named location.
    Secondly; your reply dated 06th January 2023 now mentions that you have found something that links me to some dumped waste, so again I would like to request that you provide me evidence of the item that was found in the dump rubbish and evidence that shows me dumping this black bag.
    I can not understand why this was not mentioned in the original letter dated 13th December 2022.
    I have lived in this area for over 35 years, I have difficulty walking and I have my very own black & blue wheelie bin.
    I am sure you can understand by using common sense, it would be very foolish of me to dump any of my rubbish on the street when I could use my very own black bin but for some very strange reason you have come to the conclusion Ihave taken that my own personal waste bag fromy my home and put it on a street while linking it to myself.
    I fail to understand as to how a FPN can be issued to someone when there is no physical evidence to support that the alleged person actually placed the rubbish where it was found.
    For example; I can print a letter with my neighbours details and then dump this in a black bag at the end of the street; i then ask you will this also issue them a FPN?
    I again would like to state that I can provide CCTV Footage for the day on 28th October between the hours of 08:00 till 14:00 where you will find I did not leave my home.
    I am surprised that you do not have an appeal process for FPN like you do for PCN and forcing residents to revert to Court for justice especially at a time ofwhen we are all financially struggling.

    Kind Regards

    LAS Support Reply 10th January 2023

    Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding your Fixed Penalty Noti ce. After reviewing your comments and the evidence available I am satisfied that the Fixed Penalty Notice was issued correctly.
    The legislation relating to a littering offence states that a person is guilty of an offence if that person throws down, drops or otherwise deposits in and leaves anything whatsoever in such circumstances
    as to cause, or contribute to, or tend to lead to, the defacement by litter of any place to which this section applies.
    The Body Worn Camera footage recorded is that of the interaction between yourself and the officer,and not of the offence occurring. This is in order to safeguard both parties and ensure that the integrity of both parties can be verified via review of the footage if required
    at a later date.
    The BodyWorn Camera footage on which evidence is recorded will be disclosed should the case proceed totrial.
    A Fixed Penalty Notice is issued to offenders to give them the opportunity to discharge liability for prosecution. You can discharge your liability to prosecution for the offence of littering under section 87 of the Environmental Protecti on Act 1990 by payment of the Fixed Penalty Notice or request a court date to have your case heard in the magistrate’s court to appeal the littering offence.

    When an offence is witnessed the options available are to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice to an offender or to proceed the case directly through to prosecution. Our officers patrol public places ina reas where littering is prevalent and are instructed to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice once they have witnessed a littering act. They have no discretion in this matter and are working to our directions. This ensures they are consistent towards people when issuing a penalty notice.
    As for you are requesting the body worn camera footage, if you can fill in the attached Subject Access Request form and provide us with 2 forms of ID (such as photographic ID and proof ofaddress) so we can
    look into actioning your request.
    Please note, your request for footage is a separate representation to your dispute and does not put your fixed penalty notice on hold.
    If you wish to provide further evidence relating to your representation, please provide this before 13th January 2023 so an appropriate and informed decision can be made whilst doing further investigation.

    Kind regards,

    Our Reply 13th January 2023

    Dear Sir/Madam

    Thank you for your email

    If I understand all your correspondence correctly relating to this FPN and to sum everything up; your first letter dated 13th December 2022 initially mentioned Officer XXX has reason to believe that I committed an offence and witnessed myself dumping of a black bag in a specific location.
    When I question this and wrote to you on the 19th December 2023, your reply on 6th January 2023 stated that you have found some evidence linking the above black bag to the myself. Once again, I asked for evidence for this and your reply on 10th January 2023 now states that you do not have any evidence of the offence, but body worn footage of my interaction with the officer.
    I would like to clarify for your record of the below extract from your
    recent email :
    “The legislation relating to a littering offence states that a person is guilty of anoffence if that person throws down, drops or otherwise deposits in and leaves anything whatsoever in such circumstances as to cause, or contribute to, ortend to lead to, the defacement by litter of any place to which this section applies.
    The Body Worn Camera footage recorded is that of the interaction between yourself and the officer, and not of the offence occurring. This is in order to safeguard both parties and ensure that the integrity of both parties can be verified via review of the footage if required at a later
    date. The Body Worn Camera footage on which evidence is recorded will be disclosed should the case proceed to trial."
    So the legislation states that you need to have evidence of me committing the said offence and you clearly have stated in your responses that you do not have this, except body worn camera of my interaction with a officer.
    You have asked for evidence for my representation and at this moment in time I can send you a CCTV screenshot of what is visible from my CCTV, I have downloaded the footage from the whole day and it is around 14GB of data.
    I have the full video which will be represented in front of the magistrate’s court.
    I still fail to understand how you wish to could prove this case in court without any satisfactory evidence in your possession but anyhow I would like to request a magistrate’s court date as soon as possible
    I will be filling in Subject Access Request closer to the court date and upon seeing my identification you will then realise that infact you have the wrong person, I indeed was asleep when this so-called interaction occurred.

    Kind Regards.

    LAS Support Reply 13th January 2023

    Please see last email for clarity,

    *Statements in regards to body worn camera footage were sent in error and inrelation to separate littering offences.
    Fly tipping runs in accordance with the Environmental Protection Act 1990 Secti on 33 which prohibits the deposit of controlled waste, or knowingly cause or knowingly permit controlled waste to be deposited in or on any land unless an environmental permit authorising the deposit is in force and the deposit is in accordance with the license.
    To reiterate, as a gesture of goodwill, I have granted an extension until 13th January 2023 for fullpayment to be made.

    Unless you wish to submit any further evidence to support your representation this will be my full and final response.

    Kind regards




    In my personal experience Ealing Council do not like complaints going to the Local Government Ombudsman
    A  formal compliant would be my next action
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