What first windows or wall?

GDB2222

Why would you even consider replacing the windows until the structure is sorted out? Obviously, new windows might be part of the new structure, but just a cosmetic change of the windows whilst the bay is collapsing? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Snow_Phoenix

Thank you all for your comments. 

To answer @Section62 question it is a semi detached house so unlikely we could completely alter the look as would not be in keeping with the rest of the street or connecting house. It is a flat roof on top (see picture). 



@Stuart45 it is a 1950's house so single brick with no cavity wall. We do not have a huge budget and are looking to keep the invasiveness to a minimum if we can help it which was why the helifix was suggested as something which would address the issue. 

@greenface2 the inside is ok, there is no signs of any issues and the previous owner had the house about 4 years before selling to us. Think from the deeds the owner before that owned the property for a number of years but can't see anything about their listing when they sold to comment on if replastering has been done. 

@GDB2222 the window repair guy seemed to think it would be the other way round and would be unreasonable to consider repairing the structure as there is inadequate support within the window and would just cause damage to the new structure if we did not have the right supports in the window frame.  

Just trying to feel out who we should be approaching as do not want to be wasting time if we can help it waiting for someone who is not necessary or other steps should have been taken first before their involvement. 

greenface2

GDB2222 said:

Why would you even consider replacing the windows until the structure is sorted out? Obviously, new windows might be part of the new structure, but just a cosmetic change of the windows whilst the bay is collapsing? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

If you have to take out the windows ( at least the bottom one ) I would fit new frames with the sorrect support . we cannot see above the top bay so unsure how much its supporting. there isn't normally much weight in them small curved bays . Internal props and outside strong boys . bay jacks or full support . not a big job but change the frames same time . I would do bottom first  

GDB2222

I’m not meaning to suggest that new windows, with the correct support, might not be a solution to the structural problem. But I would want sign off on this by a professional first, not just the windows repair guy. 

Snow_Phoenix

Thank you for your reply @GDB2222. I guess that is why I am on here asking the questions as to who to approach. 

The surveyor who originally pointed out the issue would not reply to me when I went back and tired to ask him if it was as builder or structural engineer we needed to look at it. He carried out the survey around 6 months ago and suggested the issues highlighted needed to be addressed promptly to prevent incurring additional issues. 

The structural engineer we contacted before purchasing the house made some errors in their costs when invoicing us, they admitted this when we asked for a breakdown of their time, so we are reluctant to go back them again to get a more in-depth evaluation. Also if we have a rough idea of what the issues are do we need to pay out for another one to tell us the same thing? 

The building firm who are experts in the helifix system, are recommended as an endorsed local installer by the manufacture, were contacted around 2 months ago and chased 1 month ago and still have not got back to me to provide any idea of what is needed. They have a very good reputation and as I have heard horror stories about work not being done to a satisfiable standard would prefer to go with someone who has been well endorsed. Thought it is frustrating having to wait when there are ongoing issues. 

We received new information in the last week and I guess what I am asking is would there be anyone else we should look at approaching about the matter who we have not tried already as clearly the situation is deteriorating and needs addressing promptly. It may be as this is a common issue with bays that some window companies are set up to do the repair as part of the fitting process, but you do not know unless you ask if others have had similar experiences or if it is best to avoid as would be a substandard job as it is not their area of expertise? 

ThisIsWeird

How would the helifix system work? (I ask because I don't know). Is it by stitching the bow's brickwork to the house? If so, surely that won't overcome the drop that's already occurred, and - had it been done earlier - would likely have seen these cracks occur further out the bow, beyond where the helifix ends? I mean, helifix bars aren't going to hold that bow in place, are they?

How much cosmetic damage will they cause, and how will this be made good?

And how will the existing, appallingly- applied crack 'repair' be made good - will it all be chipped away to clean brick?

It might not be possible - I'm not a builder, so don't know - but is there any possibility of that mortar repair being fully removed, the (presumably) widening crack cleaned out, the internal plaster removed, and that brickwork being eased back closer to where it was? How will this be cosmetically made good again?

I presume bow windows have built-in vertical support struts? Was the likely issue with these replacements windows that they didn't have these, or the windows were too short?! 

FreeBear

ThisIsWeird said:

How would the helifix system work? (I ask because I don't know). Is it by stitching the bow's brickwork to the house? If so, surely that won't overcome the drop that's already occurred, and - had it been done earlier - would likely have seen these cracks occur further out the bow, beyond where the helifix ends? I mean, helifix bars aren't going to hold that bow in place, are they?

How much cosmetic damage will they cause, and how will this be made good?

And how will the existing, appallingly- applied crack 'repair' be made good - will it all be chipped away to clean brick?

It might not be possible - I'm not a builder, so don't know - but is there any possibility of that mortar repair being fully removed, the (presumably) widening crack cleaned out, the internal plaster removed, and that brickwork being eased back closer to where it was? How will this be cosmetically made good again?

I presume bow windows have built-in vertical support struts? Was the likely issue with these replacements windows that they didn't have these, or the windows were too short?! 

Have used Helifix bars to stitch a crack here - You cut in a slot into the mortar joint, squirt a bit of grout in, and then insert the helical bar. A further layer of grout is pumped in to cover the bar, and the whole lot is left to set for a few hours. You then repoint with a colour matched mortar for an almost invisible repair.

For the bay, using a helifix system will tie the brickwork together, so any movement of the bow would be transferred to the outer leaf of the main walls - Unless additional remedial work is undertaken, the loads from the bow would eventually pull the main wall outwards.

An upper bay could be supported by mullions or posts strategically placed in the lower window. Alternatively, a cantilever support would be built in - This would be difficult to retrofit for the OP. The first step would be to lift the floorboards in the upstairs room to see exactly what is supporting the brickwork. From there, a suitable work plan can be drawn up and a permanent repair made.

stuart45

As FreeBear said, you need to know exactly how the bay wall is constructed and supported, as well as the main wall construction.
The company would probably tie through the bay wall into the joists as well.
The bay wall could well be just a 4 inch skin of snapped headers.
If that was being built now it the upper bay would have a catnic lintel and a cavity wall.

ThisIsWeird

FreeBear said:

ThisIsWeird said:

How would the helifix system work? (I ask because I don't know). Is it by stitching the bow's brickwork to the house? If so, surely that won't overcome the drop that's already occurred, and - had it been done earlier - would likely have seen these cracks occur further out the bow, beyond where the helifix ends? I mean, helifix bars aren't going to hold that bow in place, are they?

How much cosmetic damage will they cause, and how will this be made good?

And how will the existing, appallingly- applied crack 'repair' be made good - will it all be chipped away to clean brick?

It might not be possible - I'm not a builder, so don't know - but is there any possibility of that mortar repair being fully removed, the (presumably) widening crack cleaned out, the internal plaster removed, and that brickwork being eased back closer to where it was? How will this be cosmetically made good again?

I presume bow windows have built-in vertical support struts? Was the likely issue with these replacements windows that they didn't have these, or the windows were too short?! 

Have used Helifix bars to stitch a crack here - You cut in a slot into the mortar joint, squirt a bit of grout in, and then insert the helical bar. A further layer of grout is pumped in to cover the bar, and the whole lot is left to set for a few hours. You then repoint with a colour matched mortar for an almost invisible repair.

For the bay, using a helifix system will tie the brickwork together, so any movement of the bow would be transferred to the outer leaf of the main walls - Unless additional remedial work is undertaken, the loads from the bow would eventually pull the main wall outwards.

An upper bay could be supported by mullions or posts strategically placed in the lower window. Alternatively, a cantilever support would be built in - This would be difficult to retrofit for the OP. The first step would be to lift the floorboards in the upstairs room to see exactly what is supporting the brickwork. From there, a suitable work plan can be drawn up and a permanent repair made.

So really, a better solution than helix bars is to just support the brickwork properly, as a whole. And that means window frames designed to support?
Anything that 'relies' on that bow brickwork to be held by the house wall is just asking for it. Any subsequent movement, and it'll just crack somewhere else in that brick skin, surely.
I mean, originally it was designed to be supported by the timber window frame below, so the best solution is to replicate that.

stuart45

Jacking poles and base plates would normally be used if the masonry was being retained. Even with the Catnic lintels, poles are needed.