What first windows or wall?

Snow_Phoenix

Good Morning, 

We completed on our house purchase a couple of months ago. We knew there was some issues from the survey but are now confused as to how to proceed after being given some additional advice by another trade person. Level 3 survey was carried out which pointed out cracks in the outside of the bow window structure which surveyor suggested may be due to lintel either not being present or having failed. Note these are only present on the outer wall and not the inner wall. We did our due diligence and got a structural engineer out but due to not being able to carry out any invasive work he could only give us best and worst scenario and feel he just went on the information given by the surveyor that it was related to the lintel. Though the structural engineer did note it was not clear what was supporting the brick work between the down and upstairs bay window and that the original windows would have been wooden and provided more support than the current UPVC.

The structural engineer suggested as worse case scenario would require a helifix system as there is not sufficient support for the imposing load. It was suggested this was investigated further at the point we needed to. We have decided not to go back to the structural engineer on completing the purchase due to an issue which arose when dealing with him and could see helifix offer a survey of what is required as part of their service so have contacted them directly. They have put us in touch with local contractors who are certified by them but due to the high demand on trades people presently they have not yet been able to get back to us. We have chased this after a month of not hearing anything to be advised we are on the list and they will be in touch. We had always assumed needed to do the wall prior to addressing replacing the windows as this had been what was suggested to us as if replaced the windows the wall would potentially fail. 

Fast forward to the last few days and we opened a window in the downstairs bay for the first time for it to fall out of the frame. And when I say fall out I mean large open hole in downstairs window with window on the floor next to it! Thankfully one of the window repair companies was able to come out and replace the hinges which had failed but happened to mention when they were there the cracks in the bay are typical of windows of this age as they do not have the load supports that modern ones do. He suggested getting the windows down first/getting the brick work taken out and redone as the bay windows are being fitted is the solution. He did advise us the windows are from late 80's early 90's, which is what we had assumed from their style and lack of certain features. 

So the question is do we stop waiting for the specialist in the helifix system and just go straight to looking at double glazing, trying to find someone who specialises in bay/bow windows and look for a builder who could redo the brickwork between the two bays or carry on waiting and get the helifix sorted first and then replace the windows. It was suggested by the window repair person even if the wall was fixed the windows not having the right support could still cause it issues from the repair work and would be better to do it at the same time but not sure how realistic that would be in current climate. 

Below are some photos of the cracks in the bay outside wall: 

grumbler

Snow_Phoenix said:

cracks in the outside of the bow window structure which surveyor suggested may be due to lintel either not being present or having failed. Note these are only present on the outer wall and not the inner wall.

I'm no expert, but don't see how a lintel can be used for a bay window. I guess the bricks were supported by a strong timber window frame that was recklessly replaced by a UPVC window incapable of carrying such load.

ThisIsWeird

No idea. But I'll just put out there whether there is another option of a lightweight timber frame construction to replace it, perhaps clad or hung with a contrasting material such as tiles?

If you need to redo the whole brickwork, perhaps depending on the style of the house this could also give it an aesthetic lift? (I'm not suggesting it does - I can't see it!)

It would also make it easier to achieve a higher insulation level, I think, and would certainly not be prone to cracks due to movement. Just a thought.

I presume the new windows will have metal support pillars built in to their frames where they join to each other?

stuart45

Nowadays there are special steel lintels for bay windows and curved work.
The older bays only had a single skin of brickwork, supported by the timber window.

Snow_Phoenix

Thank you for the comments and thoughts. 

The structural engineer suggested it would be the main house lintel, which would be a straight bar and there would be supports going out to the bay. The window repair person suggested there would not be any of the metal pillar supports in our UPVC windows and all the weight of the upper part of the bay and window is just sitting on the UPVC windowsill on the bottom bay window.  It was not recognised as an issue back when the windows would have been fitted in the 80's/90's but is a known problem now, so replacing with new UPVC with adequate metal support pillars should add the structure needed which he suggested would be go into the brick work below to add extra support. The window repair person advised it was an issue he sees a lot and just needs updated windows and repair to the wall sorts it. 

A lot of the other houses down the street have the same bay and it was noted by the structural engineer they also have similar hairline cracks. They all have newer windows so likely replaced at some point and it could be the cracks are historic and just have never been repaired. We have also noted a house near by with a similar bay on another street which appears to have had the brick work replaced between the ground and first floor bay windows. 

Did not know about he special steel lintels for bay windows and curved works as this has not been suggested by anyone, just that the main house lintel may need addressing. The main house intel would be several thousand pounds with a lot of invasive work whereas the helifix would be a cheaper alternative which would do the same job. The best case scenario was the mortar would just need replacing down the sides of the bay as just cosmetic wear. 

TELLIT01

It could be worth speaking to neighbours to see what they have done when replacing windows.

Section62

Snow_Phoenix said:

The best case scenario was the mortar would just need replacing down the sides of the bay as just cosmetic wear. 

Someone has previously had a go at filling cracks (not very professionally) and you now need a solution which addresses the structural strength rather than just a cosmetic fix.

Unless there were other complications I would generally lean towards replacing bays in their entirety rather than attempting to use a structural repair solution.  As TIW and stuart45 have pointed out, bays are typically lightly constructed and poorly insulated, so the cost of replacing them can typically be partially offset by the future gains in terms of thermal performance and protection from damp.

But you will need an architect to design the best possible replacement and almost certainly need to get planning consent (as well as building regs signoff) for the alteration.

Factors counting against full replacement/alteration would be if the property is a semi and altering your half visually would make it look odd, and also it really depends on what kind of roof the bay has - can you share a picture of the roof area so we can take a look at that too?

If the ground floor window doesn't have provision for vertical loadbearing capacity then any alternative will need to support the first floor, wall, and roof loads by cantilevering out from the main house structure.  A cantilevered structure needs to be designed to resist the rotation forces, so for example a simple lintel along the line of the main wall of the house couldn't support the bay directly unless it was designed so it cannot twist or rotate along its axis.  Typically cantilevering is instead achieved by extending the first floor joists out (over a supporting beam/lintel) into the bay area, so the joists act as a continuous beam with the load of the bay counterbalanced by the floor/walls in the 'internal' part of the room.  Obviously the cantilevering approach as a retrofit is one which is very invasive.

markin

Hairlines aren't really a big concern, it's the very bad fix that makes it look like it's an inch wide.

Section62

markin said:

Hairlines aren't really a big concern, it's the very bad fix that makes it look like it's an inch wide.

The problem is not knowing what is behind the repair.... it could be an inch wide at the top.

The fact the repair itself has cracked, with the crack decreasing in size from top to bottom, is highly indicative of movement involving the bay pulling away from the house due to inadequate support at the outside face.  The stepped crack in the bow wall itself further indicates the window repair person's diagnosis.

stuart45

A lot depends on how much you want to spend.
How old is the house?
Do you know if it's cavity wall, or solid. The brick bonding of the main wall suggests it's a solid wall, but it could be cavity with snapped headers.
The best job would probably be to take down the front, and rebuild the brickwork, and new frames and a lintel.
The house lintel the SE is talking about isn't taking the same load that a single storey bay would take. It's only taking some of the floor loads.
With a new special lintel, the loads would be transferred to that, and the old one removed.

greenface2

what is the inside like and has that been patched or replastered . does there appear any support between the frames . does it go through the cill down to the brick .  The upvc frames are around  30 years old my guess about 1990 .