Please come back

zagfles

Kim1965 said:

According to the latest stats there has been a massive increase "in the long term sick". It has follow ed the covid lockdowns, i can only assume that the furlough scheme has "enlightened" more to the benefits culture?
 I think the uk has more of its population defined as disabled than any othe Europe an country, so is our definition stretch ed to folk with bunions? 

Compared with other European countries I think there's more of an attitude here of treating disabled people as charity cases rather than people who are differently abled and who can still contribute to society but maybe in a different way, or with a few adjustments. In other countries, it's "oh, you can't walk, still, you can use a computer right? So you can work as a programmer, call centre, etc". Here it's "oh you can't walk, poor you, I really feel sorry for you, my compassion oozes from every pore, but you're no use to us, here have all these benefits so we can ease our conscience but then keep away from us so we don't have to think about you".

I remember working with someone 20 years ago who, looking back, was clearly bi-polar. He would often go missing, not turn up to work, or go down the pub at lunchtime and not come back. But when he was at work his work was far better than anyone else so management turned a blind eye to his attendance & timekeeping. But in today's tick-box culture, he'd probably be sent to occupational health and put on warnings, and probably sacked. Square peg round hole, but the hole didn't need to be round, it's defined as round by arbitrary unneccessary rules.

Another guy I know has paranoia, but his technical expertise in areas I've worked on were excellent and I often asked him for advice. He could easy produce good paid work if the employment law and benefit rules were more flexible, but he simply couldn't face the idea of coming off and then back onto benefits if his MH changed, and he had a point, it would have been a nighmare for anyone. So even people who have genuine MH problems, who can produce valuable work, are discouraged to by the system.

OldScientist

Kim1965 said:

According to the latest stats there has been a massive increase "in the long term sick". It has follow ed the covid lockdowns, i can only assume that the furlough scheme has "enlightened" more to the benefits culture?
 I think the uk has more of its population defined as disabled than any othe Europe an country, so is our definition stretch ed to folk with bunions? 

For those interested, the stats are at https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/articles/halfamillionmorepeopleareoutofthelabourforcebecauseoflongtermsickness/2022-11-10

From this report, it would appear that the ONS do not currently have enough data to speculate on what the reasons behind this increase actually are. For example, "A range of factors could be influencing this recent increase. We introduce some of these in this article, but more understanding is needed about the impacts of National Health Service (NHS) waiting times, long COVID, and the ageing workforce".

It is also interesting that industries with significant customer involvement and that, to a large extent, kept open during the lockdowns appear to be most affected (retail, transport and storage, accommodation and food, health, and construction) - you have to scroll quite a way down to find that graph.

FWIW, according to slightly out of data data (2018) in Figure 1 in European comparative data on Europe 2020 and persons with ...https://ec.europa.eu › social › BlobServlet the UK has lower percentage (27%) of people with disabilities than some other European countries (a few percentage points higher than the EU average of 24%), although does appear to have a higher percentage of  those with severe disability (11%) compared to the EU average of 7%.

molerat

OldScientist said:

Kim1965 said:

According to the latest stats there has been a massive increase "in the long term sick". It has follow ed the covid lockdowns, i can only assume that the furlough scheme has "enlightened" more to the benefits culture?
 I think the uk has more of its population defined as disabled than any othe Europe an country, so is our definition stretch ed to folk with bunions? 

For those interested, the stats are at https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/articles/halfamillionmorepeopleareoutofthelabourforcebecauseoflongtermsickness/2022-11-10

From this report, it would appear that the ONS do not currently have enough data to speculate on what the reasons behind this increase actually are. For example, "A range of factors could be influencing this recent increase. We introduce some of these in this article, but more understanding is needed about the impacts of National Health Service (NHS) waiting times, long COVID, and the ageing workforce".

It is also interesting that industries with significant customer involvement and that, to a large extent, kept open during the lockdowns appear to be most affected (retail, transport and storage, accommodation and food, health, and construction) - you have to scroll quite a way down to find that graph.

Perhaps they don't want to know ?

RetSol

Twenty or so years ago, I spent a total of over twelve months on sick leave on full civil service pay.

My experience is that it is possible to return to work following long-term sickness, particularly where there is support available to do so.

As @zagfles points out however, it may not be so easy to do in today's workplace culture. 

OldScientist

molerat said:

OldScientist said:

Kim1965 said:

According to the latest stats there has been a massive increase "in the long term sick". It has follow ed the covid lockdowns, i can only assume that the furlough scheme has "enlightened" more to the benefits culture?
 I think the uk has more of its population defined as disabled than any othe Europe an country, so is our definition stretch ed to folk with bunions? 

For those interested, the stats are at https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/articles/halfamillionmorepeopleareoutofthelabourforcebecauseoflongtermsickness/2022-11-10

From this report, it would appear that the ONS do not currently have enough data to speculate on what the reasons behind this increase actually are. For example, "A range of factors could be influencing this recent increase. We introduce some of these in this article, but more understanding is needed about the impacts of National Health Service (NHS) waiting times, long COVID, and the ageing workforce".

It is also interesting that industries with significant customer involvement and that, to a large extent, kept open during the lockdowns appear to be most affected (retail, transport and storage, accommodation and food, health, and construction) - you have to scroll quite a way down to find that graph.

Perhaps they don't want to know ?

Why would they not want to find out?

zagfles

OldScientist said:

Kim1965 said:

According to the latest stats there has been a massive increase "in the long term sick". It has follow ed the covid lockdowns, i can only assume that the furlough scheme has "enlightened" more to the benefits culture?
 I think the uk has more of its population defined as disabled than any othe Europe an country, so is our definition stretch ed to folk with bunions? 

For those interested, the stats are at https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/articles/halfamillionmorepeopleareoutofthelabourforcebecauseoflongtermsickness/2022-11-10

From this report, it would appear that the ONS do not currently have enough data to speculate on what the reasons behind this increase actually are. For example, "A range of factors could be influencing this recent increase. We introduce some of these in this article, but more understanding is needed about the impacts of National Health Service (NHS) waiting times, long COVID, and the ageing workforce".

It is also interesting that industries with significant customer involvement and that, to a large extent, kept open during the lockdowns appear to be most affected (retail, transport and storage, accommodation and food, health, and construction) - you have to scroll quite a way down to find that graph.

Also interesting that the trend started about a year before COVID. Not sure how the "ageing workforce" is relevant since the stats are about 16-64 year olds! Particularly if there's the supposed problem of more 50-64 year olds retiring early, so that would mean the workforce is getting younger not ageing! The trend by occupation seems to be more that lower paid occupations had bigger increases in those long term sick.

zagfles

molerat said:

OldScientist said:

Kim1965 said:

According to the latest stats there has been a massive increase "in the long term sick". It has follow ed the covid lockdowns, i can only assume that the furlough scheme has "enlightened" more to the benefits culture?
 I think the uk has more of its population defined as disabled than any othe Europe an country, so is our definition stretch ed to folk with bunions? 

For those interested, the stats are at https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/articles/halfamillionmorepeopleareoutofthelabourforcebecauseoflongtermsickness/2022-11-10

From this report, it would appear that the ONS do not currently have enough data to speculate on what the reasons behind this increase actually are. For example, "A range of factors could be influencing this recent increase. We introduce some of these in this article, but more understanding is needed about the impacts of National Health Service (NHS) waiting times, long COVID, and the ageing workforce".

It is also interesting that industries with significant customer involvement and that, to a large extent, kept open during the lockdowns appear to be most affected (retail, transport and storage, accommodation and food, health, and construction) - you have to scroll quite a way down to find that graph.

Perhaps they don't want to know ?

Or they don't want the inevitable tw*tter type strawman criticism if they dared mention increased fraud as a possibility, so they just mention safe options like "the impacts of National Health Service (NHS) waiting times, long COVID, and the ageing workforce"

Albermarle

zagfles said:

Kim1965 said:

According to the latest stats there has been a massive increase "in the long term sick". It has follow ed the covid lockdowns, i can only assume that the furlough scheme has "enlightened" more to the benefits culture?
 I think the uk has more of its population defined as disabled than any othe Europe an country, so is our definition stretch ed to folk with bunions? 

Compared with other European countries I think there's more of an attitude here of treating disabled people as charity cases rather than people who are differently abled and who can still contribute to society but maybe in a different way, or with a few adjustments. In other countries, it's "oh, you can't walk, still, you can use a computer right? So you can work as a programmer, call centre, etc". Here it's "oh you can't walk, poor you, I really feel sorry for you, my compassion oozes from every pore, but you're no use to us, here have all these benefits so we can ease our conscience but then keep away from us so we don't have to think about you".

I remember working with someone 20 years ago who, looking back, was clearly bi-polar. He would often go missing, not turn up to work, or go down the pub at lunchtime and not come back. But when he was at work his work was far better than anyone else so management turned a blind eye to his attendance & timekeeping. But in today's tick-box culture, he'd probably be sent to occupational health and put on warnings, and probably sacked. Square peg round hole, but the hole didn't need to be round, it's defined as round by arbitrary unneccessary rules.

Another guy I know has paranoia, but his technical expertise in areas I've worked on were excellent and I often asked him for advice. He could easy produce good paid work if the employment law and benefit rules were more flexible, but he simply couldn't face the idea of coming off and then back onto benefits if his MH changed, and he had a point, it would have been a nighmare for anyone. So even people who have genuine MH problems, who can produce valuable work, are discouraged to by the system.

I suspect it is not just tick box culture at work, but the whole issue of Mental Health has hit the headlines in the last two or three years. It is constantly mentioned in the news, social media etc. 
This is good as it highlights poor underfunded care and therapies for people with serious MH problems/shines a light in areas which were not mentioned so much in public.
It is not so good as it seems to mean that anything negative in your life can now be labelled as causing poor mental health, rather than just being unhappy/sad/upset/negative mood/fed up with lockdowns etc . 
I suspect that at least some of the increase in long term sick is down to some better acknowledgement of real MH problems, but some is down to more people thinking/saying they have MH problems, when really all they have is life problems/ a lack of resilience/over influenced by media coverage.

OldScientist

zagfles said:

OldScientist said:

Kim1965 said:

According to the latest stats there has been a massive increase "in the long term sick". It has follow ed the covid lockdowns, i can only assume that the furlough scheme has "enlightened" more to the benefits culture?
 I think the uk has more of its population defined as disabled than any othe Europe an country, so is our definition stretch ed to folk with bunions? 

For those interested, the stats are at https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/articles/halfamillionmorepeopleareoutofthelabourforcebecauseoflongtermsickness/2022-11-10

From this report, it would appear that the ONS do not currently have enough data to speculate on what the reasons behind this increase actually are. For example, "A range of factors could be influencing this recent increase. We introduce some of these in this article, but more understanding is needed about the impacts of National Health Service (NHS) waiting times, long COVID, and the ageing workforce".

It is also interesting that industries with significant customer involvement and that, to a large extent, kept open during the lockdowns appear to be most affected (retail, transport and storage, accommodation and food, health, and construction) - you have to scroll quite a way down to find that graph.

Also interesting that the trend started about a year before COVID. Not sure how the "ageing workforce" is relevant since the stats are about 16-64 year olds! Particularly if there's the supposed problem of more 50-64 year olds retiring early, so that would mean the workforce is getting younger not ageing! The trend by occupation seems to be more that lower paid occupations had bigger increases in those long term sick.

There's certainly more going on than the easy answer of 'everyone else apart from me is lazy or dishonest'! Longer time series long term sickness data (I cannot find the original ONS, but it is plotted at https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-long-term-sickness-rate-rises-highest-since-2005-2022-09-13/ ) indicates a decline over 2005 to 2019 before the trend reversed. Looking at the same graph on the reuters page, the number of retired appears to be down by over 50 basis points from 2012, so recent rises are returning us to historical norms.

I also note that the current economic inactivity rate  (16-64 year olds)(https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/timeseries/lf2s/lms ) of 21.5% doesn't appear to be significantly out of line with historic values back to 1971 (where it has been between 20% and 26%). The downward trend over the last decade, reversed towards the end of 2019. Looking at short periods of data (like in the ONS report) can be a bit misleading.

OldScientist

Albermarle said:

zagfles said:

Kim1965 said:

According to the latest stats there has been a massive increase "in the long term sick". It has follow ed the covid lockdowns, i can only assume that the furlough scheme has "enlightened" more to the benefits culture?
 I think the uk has more of its population defined as disabled than any othe Europe an country, so is our definition stretch ed to folk with bunions? 

Compared with other European countries I think there's more of an attitude here of treating disabled people as charity cases rather than people who are differently abled and who can still contribute to society but maybe in a different way, or with a few adjustments. In other countries, it's "oh, you can't walk, still, you can use a computer right? So you can work as a programmer, call centre, etc". Here it's "oh you can't walk, poor you, I really feel sorry for you, my compassion oozes from every pore, but you're no use to us, here have all these benefits so we can ease our conscience but then keep away from us so we don't have to think about you".

I remember working with someone 20 years ago who, looking back, was clearly bi-polar. He would often go missing, not turn up to work, or go down the pub at lunchtime and not come back. But when he was at work his work was far better than anyone else so management turned a blind eye to his attendance & timekeeping. But in today's tick-box culture, he'd probably be sent to occupational health and put on warnings, and probably sacked. Square peg round hole, but the hole didn't need to be round, it's defined as round by arbitrary unneccessary rules.

Another guy I know has paranoia, but his technical expertise in areas I've worked on were excellent and I often asked him for advice. He could easy produce good paid work if the employment law and benefit rules were more flexible, but he simply couldn't face the idea of coming off and then back onto benefits if his MH changed, and he had a point, it would have been a nighmare for anyone. So even people who have genuine MH problems, who can produce valuable work, are discouraged to by the system.

I suspect it is not just tick box culture at work, but the whole issue of Mental Health has hit the headlines in the last two or three years. It is constantly mentioned in the news, social media etc. 
This is good as it highlights poor underfunded care and therapies for people with serious MH problems/shines a light in areas which were not mentioned so much in public.
It is not so good as it seems to mean that anything negative in your life can now be labelled as causing poor mental health, rather than just being unhappy/sad/upset/negative mood/fed up with lockdowns etc . 
I suspect that at least some of the increase in long term sick is down to some better acknowledgement of real MH problems, but some is down to more people thinking/saying they have MH problems, when really all they have is life problems/ a lack of resilience/over influenced by media coverage.

Continuing off topic somewhat... One problem with the diagnosis of MH is that there are no easy quantitative tests that can be made. I have had periodic bouts of depression for which I was signed off and for which I received counselling, CBT, and mindfulness self training (for me, the latter worked best, and from the POV of the NHS, was cheapest). While the diagnosis relied on me answering a series of questions that my GP put to me about my mental state, I suspect my general demeanour at the time would have provided them with additional clues, but they certainly didn't have access to a 'unhappiness meter'.