Please come back

Nebulous2

nigelbb said:

NedS said:

nigelbb said:

The obvious measure to raise government income & incentivise early retirees back to work is to make unearned income subject to National Insurance for those below state pension age.

Wouldn't that mean double taxation of pensions. If I've paid NI on pensionable earnings and then pay NI again when drawing that pension, I'm being taxed (NI) twice on the same earnings and would be worse off as a result.

The whole idea is that you should be worse off so as to incentivise returning to work &/or raising revenue for the public finances. Of course pension contributions made via salary sacrifice aren't subject to NI.

I think the whole NI / income tax thing is a complicated mess. NI is basically an add-on to income tax for most people, and I've never understood why they couldn't combine them and simplify the system, so I largely agree with you. 

In my case however, as I outlined above, I've drawn a DB pension and am back working part-time paying minimal NI yet getting credit towards a state pension. Adding NI to my pension might stop me working completely, particularly if the NI on my DB pension gave me that credit. 

Silvertabby

molerat said:

marycanary said:

molerat said:

Out of work / low hours benefits being cut is what needs to happen. The biggest motivator is money so giving people a choice of where that money comes from is the biggest de-motivator against getting people in to work. 

How long do you think the queues at food banks and warm areas need to be to force the idle poor to work more?

In my last job we worked with job centre and a charity to give guaranteed interviews or job trials to long term unemployed.  The majority did not want to work or were unemployable due to their attitude to work, they only did it as it was mandatory for them to be on these schemes and it kept the gravy train rolling.

Many years ago my then boss showed me a page of a job application he had received via a job centre ad, as he just couldn't believe his eyes...

In response to the question 'why do you want this job' (or words to that effect) the applicant had scribbled 'effing don't but the bstd in the job centre will stop my effing money if I don't apply for it.  Screw you and your effing job'.  

WYSPECIAL

Nebulous2 said:

I think the whole NI / income tax thing is a complicated mess. NI is basically an add-on to income tax for most people, and I've never understood why they couldn't combine them and simplify the system, so I largely agree with you. 

Governments won’t want to combine them as the current system gives them more options to play with. You can promise not to increase tax and then sneak in an NI rise as you never mentioned that I your manifesto.

zagfles

Silvertabby said:

molerat said:

marycanary said:

molerat said:

Out of work / low hours benefits being cut is what needs to happen. The biggest motivator is money so giving people a choice of where that money comes from is the biggest de-motivator against getting people in to work. 

How long do you think the queues at food banks and warm areas need to be to force the idle poor to work more?

In my last job we worked with job centre and a charity to give guaranteed interviews or job trials to long term unemployed.  The majority did not want to work or were unemployable due to their attitude to work, they only did it as it was mandatory for them to be on these schemes and it kept the gravy train rolling.

Many years ago my then boss showed me a page of a job application he had received via a job centre ad, as he just couldn't believe his eyes...

In response to the question 'why do you want this job' (or words to that effect) the applicant had scribbled 'effing don't but the bstd in the job centre will stop my effing money if I don't apply for it.  Screw you and your effing job'.  

Friend of mine used to work in a components factory and they got govt incentives to take on long term unemployed - the theft rate went through the roof and they had to install airport style security checks when leaving the factory!!

But that was a long time ago. Fact is there is and always has been an element in society who want to sponge off the rest of us - in the past they were the long term unemployed who'd deliberately flunk job applications etc, these days they're down the doctors claiming depression and anxiety etc. Hence the massive increase in the "long term sick".

It seems politicians and even journalists are scared to tackle this - probably fearing the usual strawman accusations that they're cruel and horrible people targetting everyone who's genuinely sick or disabled or has MH issues, rather than specifically those who lie about or exaggerate their condition.

zagfles

WYSPECIAL said:

Nebulous2 said:

I think the whole NI / income tax thing is a complicated mess. NI is basically an add-on to income tax for most people, and I've never understood why they couldn't combine them and simplify the system, so I largely agree with you. 

Governments won’t want to combine them as the current system gives them more options to play with. You can promise not to increase tax and then sneak in an NI rise as you never mentioned that I your manifesto.

We're well past that old Blair/Brown trick. Recent manifestos have promised both, if they didn't it'd give other parties and journalists an easy attack.

But of course still broken!

doris540

Someones got to keep paying the Public sector pensions 

Adyinvestment

zagfles said:

Fact is there is and always has been an element in society who want to sponge off the rest of us - in the past they were the long term unemployed who'd deliberately flunk job applications etc, these days they're down the doctors claiming depression and anxiety etc. Hence the massive increase in the "long term sick". 

Part of my extended family are like this, it astounds me that when it comes to benefits that these poorly educated (very few of them took schooling seriously) people suddenly turn into Oxford grade benefit claim lawyers.

They know (and if not they know who to ask) exactly what to say and when to say it, have little get togethers on how to game the system, even down to the timing of benefit chips children.

Kim1965

According to the latest stats there has been a massive increase "in the long term sick". It has follow ed the covid lockdowns, i can only assume that the furlough scheme has "enlightened" more to the benefits culture?
 I think the uk has more of its population defined as disabled than any othe Europe an country, so is our definition stretch ed to folk with bunions? 

RetSol

As an (initially) unwitting participant in the Great Retirement, I find this topic fascinating.

I stepped out of the office into Petty France, SW1 one evening in June 2019 and thought "I've had enough of the rat race.".  After a number of years as a "PAYE freelancer", I applied to take my preserved civil service pension early and it went into payment in April 2020.

One of the many factors behind my decision was the menopause. In Autumn 2018, I had experienced a period of anxiety and depression which I felt was menopause-related. I had also had a couple of other health issues which turned out to be nothing serious. It was all enough though for me to think that, single and in my mid-50s, I wanted a stable income in case I found it difficult to carry on working. 

I am so glad that I made this decision. I have recently emerged from 12+ months of feeling low, anxious and exhausted.  The effects of the menopause and the pandemic have bled into each other for me and I don't know how I would have coped had I needed to work. 

I am starting out again now - self-employed in a new field of work. In a sense, I am joining the "Great Unretirement".  My motivation now however is not financial and I will not, for example, be earning enough to be required to pay N. I. 

zagfles

Adyinvestment said:

zagfles said:

Fact is there is and always has been an element in society who want to sponge off the rest of us - in the past they were the long term unemployed who'd deliberately flunk job applications etc, these days they're down the doctors claiming depression and anxiety etc. Hence the massive increase in the "long term sick". 

Part of my extended family are like this, it astounds me that when it comes to benefits that these poorly educated (very few of them took schooling seriously) people suddenly turn into Oxford grade benefit claim lawyers.

They know (and if not they know who to ask) exactly what to say and when to say it, have little get togethers on how to game the system, even down to the timing of benefit chips children.

Personally I don't have a problem with people "gaming" the system, if that means arranging their affairs to maximise benefits, as long as there's no lying, exaggeration or other fraud. It's not really any different to arranging their affairs to minimise tax. Examples include stuff like sal sac'ing to below £50k to keep child ben, or paying into a pension to increase tax credits etc, which are discussed here all the time. Or even having children with the intention of relying on benefits. The system has rules and if those rules allow abuse then it's the rules which need changing, not people who are playing by the rules.

It's stuff like lying about their health or capacity for work whilst doing stuff (hobbies, travel, even voluntary work etc) which clearly contradicts that.