Please come back

Kim1965

That retirement age suprises mě. I live in a cul de sac where none worked into their sixties. 

MalMonroe

MikeJXE said:

After reading moist of the posts on here I find it surprising almost everyone retired early, did no one think enough of their job to stay longer, wasn't there no job satisfaction ? I'm 82 and had to retire at 63 because my wife became ill and I had to look after her, I did that for 10 years till she passed. Now I'm raring to go and start again, When I was working in the construction industry I couldn't wait to get up and go to work, I'm not fit enough to do that now but I am fit enough to do something so I applied for a job, if I get it thats when my life will begin again. 

Hi, I wish you all the very best for your job. I think working is a great way to have a good social life - sometimes (I met my two best friends at work years ago) but it's also great to have some out of work social time. Have you ever thought of joining the University of the third age? It's not a university at all but it's a way to meet other retired folk of all ages and stages. And you can learn a lot of things and you can participate as much or as little as you wish. I've not joined as yet because even though I'm retired I've now plunged into self-employment and it's fabulous. I choose my own hours and my boss is perfect. 

But do think about doing something other than work - here's a link for U3A - https://www.u3a.org.uk/ 

Oh and another one - https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/work-learning/education-training/university-of-the-third-age/

You have the internet or you wouldn't be on this site, so you could do a google search of any social activities for older people in your area. Your life really could begin again in an entirely different way. Good luck, anyway. 

MalMonroe

I'm happy to have 'gone back'. On my own terms, my own business, my own hours. Self-employed. I love it. Only thing I'm not so keen on is now I earn enough to have to pay income tax again. But obvs, no National Insurance. And of course, I'm now registered with HMRC as self-employed. There's no age limit and there's no limit to what we can do once we are a bit older.

I'm 72 but feel much younger and need something to stimulate my brain. As a mature student I graduated from Uni with a 2.1 BA Hons and now need to earn some more cash so I can do an MA. Just for the fun of it, really. Hard work? Phooey! I'm one of the older generation and we were built to work hard, physically and mentally!  Weren't we?     

strawb_shortcake

I had an Uncle that regularly had two jobs from the age of 14, he didn't like to take leave and until he was married when forced to take leave he'd work elsewhere for a week or two. 
He'd often also work 7 days a week, he did have breaks, evenings out and holidays. 

Unfortunately he was diagnosed with cancer pre covid, and was more upset about taking 9 months off work than the cancer returning to work as soon as Drs would allow. 
He was then diagnosed a second time with cancer, and had every intention of returning to work, sadly cancer had other plans for him and he passed away a short time ago. 

But, he died with no regrets and thoroughly loved his life, horses for courses and all that

saucer

Kim1965 said:

That retirement age suprises mě. I live in a cul de sac where none worked into their sixties. 

They didnt see retirement as a dead end?

(couldnt resist)

Albermarle

marycanary said:

I'm employed in local government managing teams working with people on very low incomes. So I say this as someone with real, up to date, everyday experience, not, "I used to know something about this" or "a cousin's friend told me."  There are some people gaming the system, possibly by working cash in hand to supplement their benefits, but it's difficult to get more money by having children because of the benefits cap so I am surprised all expert scroungers haven't worked that out by now. There are also many honest people struggling. Every day we see,

• Mental health problems which are much worse than they were 10 or 20 years ago. Not just depression and anxiety which seem to be ubiquitous but very serious mental health issues where people revolve around a circle of being in the hospital, coming out with little or no support only to be readmitted. In the meantime, they can cause chaos in their families and communities.
• People with personality disorders who to the layperson appear to have MH problems but the professionals say do not and can not be treated. There are no support services for them. Some can not hold down a job or keep a stable tenancy.  I have no idea why the number is increasing or where they were and what they did before.
• Drug abuse and assorted problems like drug induced psychosis. These are much more prevalent than they were 10 years ago. It seems the police have given up the fight and instead leave the dealers to get on with their trade. Even when known dealers are pointed out by the community no action is taken. Many users are incapable of taking work of any type or even keeping a tenancy without a great deal of support. 
• The frankly unemployable. Often, but not always older people with limited education and some health problems. They are unsuited to office work, too unattractive for hospitality and not strong enough for manual labour, assuming there is any to be had. I wonder if it was one of these people who knew they would not be offered an office job so to save their pride said FU on the application for a pension post?
• Lots and lots of desperate people, often families in work with children who can no longer make ends meet. Or older people in insecure work.  They may have debt or have had some bad luck like a period of unemployment (much work around here is seasonal), loss of a privately rented tenancy or a period sickness. Sometimes they have made silly decisions like moving in with an unsuitable partner or taking a job which needs a reliable vehicle when their car is old and decrepit. 

A major problem is the cost of housing and the lack of supply. Rents have increased faster than wages so households become homeless and have to spend long periods in temporary accommodation or have to spend an unsustainably large amount of their income on rent. Families also struggle to stay in work without reliable, affordable child care, especially for very young children. It's hard to hold down a job if you have to take time off at short notice because your toddler or 5 year old has vomiting and diarrhoea or a cold so they can't go to nursery or school.

How you get any of these groups into sustainable, long-term employment I don't know. How low would benefits have to be to make a mother leave a child in unsuitable childcare so she could go to work or make a person with psychosis well?

There seems to be a never ending tsunami of need. After 40 years I've had enough and I will retire in March when I turned 60.

Just my two penn'orths. 

Thanks for the post. Good to hear real life experiences from the front line, although a bit depressing.....

zagfles

OldScientist said:

zagfles said:

OldScientist said:

zagfles said:

OldScientist said:

zagfles said:

OldScientist said:

Kim1965 said:

According to the latest stats there has been a massive increase "in the long term sick". It has follow ed the covid lockdowns, i can only assume that the furlough scheme has "enlightened" more to the benefits culture?
 I think the uk has more of its population defined as disabled than any othe Europe an country, so is our definition stretch ed to folk with bunions? 

For those interested, the stats are at https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/articles/halfamillionmorepeopleareoutofthelabourforcebecauseoflongtermsickness/2022-11-10

From this report, it would appear that the ONS do not currently have enough data to speculate on what the reasons behind this increase actually are. For example, "A range of factors could be influencing this recent increase. We introduce some of these in this article, but more understanding is needed about the impacts of National Health Service (NHS) waiting times, long COVID, and the ageing workforce".

It is also interesting that industries with significant customer involvement and that, to a large extent, kept open during the lockdowns appear to be most affected (retail, transport and storage, accommodation and food, health, and construction) - you have to scroll quite a way down to find that graph.

Also interesting that the trend started about a year before COVID. Not sure how the "ageing workforce" is relevant since the stats are about 16-64 year olds! Particularly if there's the supposed problem of more 50-64 year olds retiring early, so that would mean the workforce is getting younger not ageing! The trend by occupation seems to be more that lower paid occupations had bigger increases in those long term sick.

There's certainly more going on than the easy answer of 'everyone else apart from me is lazy or dishonest'!

Well the ONS don't even include it as a possibility. Instead they just mention safe options like "the impacts of National Health Service (NHS) waiting times, long COVID, and the ageing workforce". An "easy answer" is one thing, avoiding a possible but controversial answer is another, and not something any objective statistical organisation should do.

Longer time series long term sickness data (I cannot find the original ONS, but it is plotted at https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-long-term-sickness-rate-rises-highest-since-2005-2022-09-13/ ) indicates a decline over 2005 to 2019 before the trend reversed. Looking at the same graph on the reuters page, the number of retired appears to be down by over 50 basis points from 2012, so recent rises are returning us to historical norms.

So much for blaming retirees! Shows a significant long term decline in retirees under 65.

PS - when you quote links in brackets - please add a space to the end of the URL before the close brackets, otherwise the link doesn't work, it includes the ) and you have to manually change the link. Or at least that happens in my browser, others may be different.

I also note that the current economic inactivity rate  (16-64 year olds)(https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/timeseries/lf2s/lms ) of 21.5% doesn't appear to be significantly out of line with historic values back to 1971 (where it has been between 20% and 26%). The downward trend over the last decade, reversed towards the end of 2019. Looking at short periods of data (like in the ONS report) can be a bit misleading.

Right - but as discussed above with international comparisons, that's likely to be due to increasing female participation in the workforce. In 1971 married women generally weren't in paid employment and so "economically inactive", similar to other countries which now have a higher economic inactivity rate than the UK. In 1971 sex discrimination was perfectly legal - I've got an old newspaper from around that time and the job adverts are an eye opener, adverts mostly mentioned "man" (eg "university educated man required for...") or "Girl Friday" required!

My guess is that they haven't included laziness or dishonesty because a) it is unlikely to encompass a significant number of people and b) it is not easy to measure or define (well, fraud is, but laziness isn't).

For example, among the early retirees on this forum (including myself) how many of us can be categorised as lazy? In the last year, I have written about 75% of a book and 3 academic papers (and, when I've finished responding here, am in the process of finishing off a fourth), but only the book, if I can make money from it, will count as economic activity. Admittedly, I only spend a couple of hours a day doing this instead of the upwards of 10 hours a day I spent when being paid for it (when not being interrupted by meetings, meetings about meetings, targets, meeting about targets, targets about meetings, etc.). I might be safely categorised as one of the 'idle comfortable' since I have enough income to supply my wants without recourse to direct resources from the state. Of course, that will change once I reach state pension age.

Not sure why you're bringing up "lazyness", it seems to be a strawman, it could apply to early retirees or even people who go part time. I was talking about fraud - ie lying about or exaggerating a condition in order to claim PIP/DLA, or get UC with LCWRA. Something that the ONS don't even include as a possibility. I'm not sure why you think it's unlikely to be significant, what do you base that on? I personally know people who have real conditions but exaggerate them, for instance with a condition that varies, claiming that a bad day which may occur occasionally is typical, or not reporting an improvement in a condition. Some were even advised to do so by supposed charities! Or even getting advice from friends on what to say/do to get PIP/LCWRA. There is a culture in some areas of this being acceptable, normal practice. People who've lived all their lives in middle class areas and don't socialise with people in poorer areas may never see it, possibly like people in cushy public sector jobs like the ONS?. But it exists, and has changed. People who hate it the most IME are people in bad circumstances themselves who see others defrauding the system. As mentioned earlier, the UK has massively more people on disability benefits than other similar countries, Scotland has a bigger problem which may be why it was the Scottish govt that commissioned this report a few years ago:

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/foi-eir-release/2018/07/foi-18-01623/documents/foi-18-01632-international-comparison-disability-benefits-report-pdf/foi-18-01632-international-comparison-disability-benefits-report-pdf/govscot:document/la-commission-des-droits-et-de-l-autonomie-des-personnes-handicapees

My apologies - you replied to my earlier comment which mentioned by laziness and dishonesty and I ran with one and not the other.

Fraud is interesting, prior to 2019 (when the way it was calculated changed), the level of benefit (including state pension) overpayment (which may be fraud or error) sat at about 2% of payments. Since they changed the methodology, and particularly since the pandemic, overpayments now appear to be running at 4%. So, assuming the 500k extra economically inactive are all on benefits of some kind (which they aren't) that would appear to be a maximum of about 20k cases (see the rather fascinating document at https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-2021-to-2022-estimates/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-ending-fye-2022 ). While 4% is not a small number (and represents about £500m), it is relatively small compared to whatever other reasons are in play.

The Scottish report is also interesting, but only covers 'extra costs disability allowances' and 'Although extra costs disability benefits are found in the countries reviewed here, this report shows that the UK and Scotland are unique in the reach of such benefits. This may be because in most other countries, the main disability support is provided in the form of contributory ‘disability pensions’, and extra costs are assumed to be covered by these.'

In other words, care must be taken in interpreting these data (the caveats listed by the authors in Section 3 are extensive) since they do not include all of the disability benefits paid by the other countries.

The trouble with fraud is unless you have methods of successful detection you can't know how much of it there is. I'm also not sure why you assume the increase economically inactive would have the same proportion of fraudulent claims as the existing claims, that seems a bit of an assumption.

Re the Scottish report, they were careful to only select a few countries to compare with who had similar benefits. Yes as with most benefits, other countries adopt a more contributory approach, ie you have to have contributed to get the benefit, a bit like insurance. It's also skewed by other countries generally not separating working age and pensioner benefits. But the overall comparison, even with caveats, is an eye opener.

If you look at other vaguely related sorts of things which you'd expect to be similar between similar countries, for instance whiplash claims, something that can be hard to verify medically and depends more on the patient's report of symptoms, the UK again has a massively higher claim rate than other countries https://www.actuarialpost.co.uk/article/uk-the-whiplash-capital-of-europe-4710.htm

MikeJXE

MalMonroe said:

MikeJXE said:

After reading moist of the posts on here I find it surprising almost everyone retired early, did no one think enough of their job to stay longer, wasn't there no job satisfaction ? I'm 82 and had to retire at 63 because my wife became ill and I had to look after her, I did that for 10 years till she passed. Now I'm raring to go and start again, When I was working in the construction industry I couldn't wait to get up and go to work, I'm not fit enough to do that now but I am fit enough to do something so I applied for a job, if I get it thats when my life will begin again. 

Hi, I wish you all the very best for your job. I think working is a great way to have a good social life - sometimes (I met my two best friends at work years ago) but it's also great to have some out of work social time. Have you ever thought of joining the University of the third age? It's not a university at all but it's a way to meet other retired folk of all ages and stages. And you can learn a lot of things and you can participate as much or as little as you wish. I've not joined as yet because even though I'm retired I've now plunged into self-employment and it's fabulous. I choose my own hours and my boss is perfect. 

But do think about doing something other than work - here's a link for U3A - https://www.u3a.org.uk/ 

Oh and another one - https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/work-learning/education-training/university-of-the-third-age/

You have the internet or you wouldn't be on this site, so you could do a google search of any social activities for older people in your area. Your life really could begin again in an entirely different way. Good luck, anyway. 

I'm not a great believer in voluntary work or even charity for the simple reason someone further up the pole is not voluntary and collecting massive salaries

My voluntary is to help someone who really needs it. 

A few weeks ago I saw this young lady sitting on the floor in a corner covered in a blanket out side a shopping centre, she couldn't speak English but I got her to understand come with me, there were plenty of people about so I wasn't exploiting her and she wasn't afraid, I took her into a shop and bought her some food.

By the look on her face she was so pleased 

Thats what I feel is helping the ones who need help 

zagfles

marycanary said:

I'm employed in local government managing teams working with people on very low incomes. So I say this as someone with real, up to date, everyday experience, not, "I used to know something about this" or "a cousin's friend told me."  There are some people gaming the system, possibly by working cash in hand to supplement their benefits, but it's difficult to get more money by having children because of the benefits cap so I am surprised all expert scroungers haven't worked that out by now. There are also many honest people struggling. Every day we see,

• Mental health problems which are much worse than they were 10 or 20 years ago. Not just depression and anxiety which seem to be ubiquitous but very serious mental health issues where people revolve around a circle of being in the hospital, coming out with little or no support only to be readmitted. In the meantime, they can cause chaos in their families and communities.
• People with personality disorders who to the layperson appear to have MH problems but the professionals say do not and can not be treated. There are no support services for them. Some can not hold down a job or keep a stable tenancy.  I have no idea why the number is increasing or where they were and what they did before.
• Drug abuse and assorted problems like drug induced psychosis. These are much more prevalent than they were 10 years ago. It seems the police have given up the fight and instead leave the dealers to get on with their trade. Even when known dealers are pointed out by the community no action is taken. Many users are incapable of taking work of any type or even keeping a tenancy without a great deal of support. 
• The frankly unemployable. Often, but not always older people with limited education and some health problems. They are unsuited to office work, too unattractive for hospitality and not strong enough for manual labour, assuming there is any to be had. I wonder if it was one of these people who knew they would not be offered an office job so to save their pride said FU on the application for a pension post?
• Lots and lots of desperate people, often families in work with children who can no longer make ends meet. Or older people in insecure work.  They may have debt or have had some bad luck like a period of unemployment (much work around here is seasonal), loss of a privately rented tenancy or a period sickness. Sometimes they have made silly decisions like moving in with an unsuitable partner or taking a job which needs a reliable vehicle when their car is old and decrepit. 

A major problem is the cost of housing and the lack of supply. Rents have increased faster than wages so households become homeless and have to spend long periods in temporary accommodation or have to spend an unsustainably large amount of their income on rent. Families also struggle to stay in work without reliable, affordable child care, especially for very young children. It's hard to hold down a job if you have to take time off at short notice because your toddler or 5 year old has vomiting and diarrhoea or a cold so they can't go to nursery or school.

How you get any of these groups into sustainable, long-term employment I don't know. How low would benefits have to be to make a mother leave a child in unsuitable childcare so she could go to work or make a person with psychosis well?

There seems to be a never ending tsunami of need. After 40 years I've had enough and I will retire in March when I turned 60.

Just my two penn'orths. 

Thanks - very interesting! I think drugs has a huge knock on impact on MH, and yes the police seem to have given up. Our neighbour reported cannabis smell from her adjoining semi and the police did nothing about it. Housing - definitely. Governments are too cowardly to do anything real to fix the housing problem, like taxes to take the investment demand out of housing which IMO is the main cause of demand outstripping supply. Something I've ranted about here loads of times.

On the benefits cap - if anyone in the household, adult or child, gets PIP/DLA you're all exempt from the cap.

I think perhaps you're getting a skewed picture though - you presumably just deal with those who have problems. Most people on benefits or low incomes manage perfectly fine, a couple on minimum wage would earn around £36k between them, a single parent on benefits would generally get rent paid and enough money to live on if they're careful and manage money well. But you presumably wouldn't deal with them, why would you if they don't have problems.

A minority have problems, often (but not always) as you say because of MH issues, or debt, drugs, alcohol, gambling or just an inability to budget/manage money. They'd likely have problems whatever their income (I know a couple on well over £100k between them  who are always skint!). In some ways, more money makes it worse - in the same way as alcohol abuse charities want alcohol made less affordable, and there are minimum alcohol pricing legislation in various forms in all UK countries, but that's defeated if you then give people extra money through PIP for alcohol or drug addiction (or associated MH/health problems), or even if they go to foodbanks to enable them to spend less on food and more on their habit. (not that I'm saying everyone who goes to foodbanks is a drug addict or an alcoholic - just to pre-empt any strawmen).

p00hsticks

MikeJXE said:

My voluntary is to help someone who really needs it. 

A few weeks ago I saw this young lady sitting on the floor in a corner covered in a blanket out side a shopping centre, she couldn't speak English but I got her to understand come with me, there were plenty of people about so I wasn't exploiting her and she wasn't afraid, I took her into a shop and bought her some food.

By the look on her face she was so pleased 

Thats what I feel is helping the ones who need help 

Even in cases like that you need to be a bit careful. It's not unheard of for such people to be dropped off by their 'minders' at the start of the day, spend the day huddled in a corner begging as you describe, and then get picked up at the end of the day with a demand to hand over their (often substantial) takings.

It's an entire industry driven by some very unsavoury types....

(I'm obviously not saying that all homeless are part of such schemes, but I understand that there are many unfortunates, particualrly illegal immigrants, who end up being put out begging, minding cannabis farms etc, in order to pay back their fares.)