Hydrogen Trial - Big Brother

[Deleted User]

For those who suggest that suppliers will never invoke their legal right of entry to install a smart meter might like to take note of what is passing through Parliament at the moment. Two towns - Whitby and Redcar - have been short-listed for a Hydrogen only trial. The Government is extending Cadent's rights of entry to make the necessary changes:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/energy-security-bill-factsheets/energy-security-bill-factsheet-enabling-the-hydrogen-village-trial

'The question of consent is a complex one. In their instructions to the gas companies, the government has asked that they include in their proposals evidence of how they have engaged and consulted with residents. Cadent told the BBC they had commissioned independent surveys of residents' reactions.

But demands .........for a straight vote on the proposal have fallen on deaf ears. 

"A vote won't be the real world," Mr Clarke from Cadent says. "We are all going to need to make this choice on a certain day to move to a different type of heating technology. This project is bringing that decision to life right now for Whitby, but it's coming for all of us in the near future."

The consultation period is expected to finish in March with the government making a decision on whether Whitby or Redcar switch to pure hydrogen later in the year. 

Whichever gets the green light, it will be hard for residents to object further. Legislation currently passing through the British parliament would give gas distributors powers of entry into homes in order to enforce the transfer away from natural gas. 

A government factsheet says this would only be used as a "last resort" and that those who don't want hydrogen should choose electric heating instead.' (BBC)

Should consumers be worried?

"Both the gas companies and the government say residents are worrying needlessly about safety. They say that though hydrogen is more explosive, additional measures will be in place making the risk similar to that of natural gas. 

That doesn't wash with Professor Tom Baxter, an expert in hydrogen at the University of Strathclyde.

"Would you buy a car from a salesman who said, 'This car will crash more often but because of the safety features, we will be just as safe?" he asks. "You wouldn't do it."' (BBC)

pallyman

I would be willing to do this if it was in my area as i think hydrogen is the way forward at the moment ,for cars even more so.

inspectorperez

Would love to know what the criteria was for selecting Whitby and Redcar!

Soft touch Northerners maybe, no high rise apartment blocks, could go on speculating all day.

mark_cycling00

Hydrogen would be amazing. Pure solar and wind is totally unsustainable due to the lack of energy storage in winter.

Here's a tech that Britain could lead the world in, but we'll just let it pass us by....

[Deleted User]

inspectorperez said:

Would love to know what the criteria was for selecting Whitby and Redcar!

Soft touch Northerners maybe, no high rise apartment blocks, could go on speculating all day.

Close to major industrial sites such as Teeside and Stanlow Refinery (Ellesmere Port). 

Alnat1

I'm sure people had the same reactions when gas was first rolled out.

It's new, it's different so human nature says it's scary. We all got there in the end and not too many of us exploded.

[Deleted User]

mark_cycling00 said:

Hydrogen would be amazing. Pure solar and wind is totally unsustainable due to the lack of energy storage in winter.

Here's a tech that Britain could lead the world in, but we'll just let it pass us by....

The summary in this Parliamentary Report (published a few days ago) suggests that hydrogen has a very limited role to play:

https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/33292/documents/180198/default/

'It seems likely that any future use of hydrogen will be limited rather than universal. It is likely to be best suited to applications or places which are:

• Hard to electrify—such as some parts of the rail network;

• Uses that do not require the creation of an extensive refuelling network—such as local bus services operating out of a fixed number of depots; and

• Users who are adjacent to, or accessible to, places where hydrogen is produced, such as industrial clusters.

  In addition, hydrogen has important potential uses as:

• a means of energy storage; and

• a source power for energy intensive industries like steel, glass and mineral production.

  This limited—rather than universal—use of hydrogen should inform Government decisions. For example, we disagree with the Climate Change Committee’s recommendation that the Government should mandate new domestic boilers to be hydrogen-ready from 2025.

  In our view multiple changes will be needed to the way we obtain, use and store energy if we are to reach Net Zero emissions by 2050. Hydrogen will have its place in this portfolio. But we do not believe that it will be the panacea to our problems that might sometimes be inferred from the hopes placed on it.'

MattMattMattUK

mark_cycling00 said:

Hydrogen would be amazing. Pure solar and wind is totally unsustainable due to the lack of energy storage in winter.

Here's a tech that Britain could lead the world in, but we'll just let it pass us by....

Hydrogen is a dead end for domestic supplies. To make it at cleanly and at scale requires a lot of electricity, it makes no sense to use that to convert water to hydrogen, pipe the hydrogen then burn it. The additional losses in the system make it a bad idea overall. 

The main reason there is a push for hydrogen for domestic use is the gas plumbing industry, boiler makers etc. Hydrogen makes sense in some conditions for vehicles, especially aircraft and ships using cryogenic hydrogen, but BEVs  win when it comes to overall efficiency and for domestic then electricity wins hands down, though there are benefits to not needing a lot of lithium for batteries if cars use hydrogen. The major issue is that long term hydrogen embrittlement is still a long way from being fully solved and it may even be impossible to solve. 

Slinky

Our new boiler is hydrogen ready.

[Deleted User]

Hydrogen-powered aircraft. Sadly, not that simple (based on 35 years of my life spent in the air):

‘Another major hurdle for hydrogen-fueled flight, according to the International Air Transport Association, will be to introduce and certify new aircraft designs. To run on hydrogen, aircraft need to be redesigned to incorporate larger fuel tanks. For instance, a Boeing 747 jumbo jet would need more than 1 million liters of hydrogen to get roughly the same range as 250,000 liters of jet fuel, The Guardian reports.

Anyone who has operated passenger-flying aircraft knows that considerable effort and money has been put into producing accurate computer-generated jet plans so that aircraft arrive at their destination on legal fuel minimums. Yes, jet engine technology continues to improve; however, when I last operated a large passenger-carrying aircraft for every extra tonne of fuel we carried, we used 7% of it per hour just to carry it. How many passengers would the 747 cited above actually be able to carry? All aircraft have a maximum all up weight.

Yes, we will see hydrogen-fuelled short-range flights but we should expect the cost per seat to increase significantly.

peter3hg

[Deleted User] said:

Hydrogen-powered aircraft. Sadly, not that simple (based on 35 years of my life spent in the air):

‘Another major hurdle for hydrogen-fueled flight, according to the International Air Transport Association, will be to introduce and certify new aircraft designs. To run on hydrogen, aircraft need to be redesigned to incorporate larger fuel tanks. For instance, a Boeing 747 jumbo jet would need more than 1 million liters of hydrogen to get roughly the same range as 250,000 liters of jet fuel, The Guardian reports.

Anyone who has operated passenger-flying aircraft knows that considerable effort and money has been put into producing accurate computer-generated jet plans so that aircraft arrive at their destination on legal fuel minimums. Yes, jet engine technology continues to improve; however, when I last operated a large passenger-carrying aircraft for every extra tonne of fuel we carried, we used 7% of it per hour just to carry it. How many passengers would the 747 cited above actually be able to carry? All aircraft have a maximum all up weight.

Yes, we will see hydrogen-fuelled short-range flights but we should expect the cost per seat to increase significantly.

I assume that is talking about using the hydrogen as a straight fuel rather than having a fuel cell powering electric ducted engines.

Hydrogen used in a fuel cell has a usable energy density of about 33.3 kWh/kg compared to 12 kWh/kg for aviation fuel. Therefore there is no technical reason a hydrogen fuel cell powered plane couldn't match or even exceed a current plane in the future. Obviously the technology isn't there at the moment in terms of efficient electric only "jet" engines.