Hydrogen Trial - Big Brother

molerat

ariarnia said:

MarzipanCrumble said:

TBH I have wondered about 'if your gas boiler breaks down when gas boilers are banned' what happens?  Alot of houses radiators and pipes are not the right size for ASHPs or GSHPs - many people are strugglingto afford the basics - so is the gov going to condone no heating if this happens to you?

the announcement was no new gas boilers from 2025 (which has since been explained to mean no new houses could have gas or oil boilers installed when built)

that doesn't mean you can't have your boiler repaired or even replaced but it might be harder and harder over time to find replacement parts. 

the bigger problem i dont understand is how they could separate out the pipes if people switch to hydrogen one house at a time. it would have to be area by area. and that would need the government to step in and help a hole area switch. 

The Scottish government are looking to take that one literally !

macman

ariarnia said:

MarzipanCrumble said:

TBH I have wondered about 'if your gas boiler breaks down when gas boilers are banned' what happens?  Alot of houses radiators and pipes are not the right size for ASHPs or GSHPs - many people are strugglingto afford the basics - so is the gov going to condone no heating if this happens to you?

the announcement was no new gas boilers from 2025 (which has since been explained to mean no new houses could have gas or oil boilers installed when built)

that doesn't mean you can't have your boiler repaired or even replaced but it might be harder and harder over time to find replacement parts. 

the bigger problem i dont understand is how they could separate out the pipes if people switch to hydrogen one house at a time. it would have to be area by area. and that would need the government to step in and help a hole area switch. 

It will take some organising, but we managed it OK when we switched from town gas to North Sea gas.

Ectophile

Hydrogen is a rubbish fuel for gas boilers.  People point out how much energy there is in 1Kg of hydrogen, while conveniently ignoring how big one Kg of hydrogen is.  In terms of energy per cubic metre, it's nowhere near methane (natural gas).

Our current gas infrastructure couldn't cope with pumping enough hydrogen to keep the gas boilers lit.  Either the pressure would have to be increased until the pipes burst, or all the pipes would have to be ripped out and replaced with fatter ones.

macman

Ectophile said:

Hydrogen is a rubbish fuel for gas boilers.  People point out how much energy there is in 1Kg of hydrogen, while conveniently ignoring how big one Kg of hydrogen is.  In terms of energy per cubic metre, it's nowhere near methane (natural gas).

Our current gas infrastructure couldn't cope with pumping enough hydrogen to keep the gas boilers lit.  Either the pressure would have to be increased until the pipes burst, or all the pipes would have to be ripped out and replaced with fatter ones.

Wouldn't one expect BG and Cadent to have done the basic maths before financing this project then?

Dogbyte009

inspectorperez said:

Would love to know what the criteria was for selecting Whitby and Redcar!

It's because there's a hydrogen production plant planned for Teesside.

Astria

Personally I think Hydrogen isn't a poor fuel for boilers, if you can create it locally as a storage and use it up as and when needed, but trying to transport it like gas is a bad idea because of it's denseness, and so the energy requirements of doing so will be high (but I'm willing to be proved wrong...)

Heat pumps are a good idea, if implemented correctly, but really need to be combined with solar panels and battery storage systems, which means they are very expensive to install, but essentially you can get free/cheap energy (Octopus are even doing heatpump friendly tariffs so you can heat your hot water during off-peak times).

I don't see energy prices coming down any time soon, as in fact I think the government will allow gas prices to increase by offering less and less subsidies to try and get people to rely less on it.

MattMattMattUK

Astria said:

Personally I think Hydrogen isn't a poor fuel for boilers, if you can create it locally as a storage and use it up as and when needed, but trying to transport it like gas is a bad idea because of it's denseness, and so the energy requirements of doing so will be high (but I'm willing to be proved wrong...)

The only way to produce hydrogen in a clean, efficient way is to use nuclear power plants to split sea water which means it has to be done at large nuclear plants near the cost. It is also a poor fuel for boilers due to the energy losses from using electric to generate hydrogen which is then burnt, it is more efficient to just use the electricity. 

Astria said:

Heat pumps are a good idea, if implemented correctly, but really need to be combined with solar panels and battery storage systems, which means they are very expensive to install, but essentially you can get free/cheap energy (Octopus are even doing heatpump friendly tariffs so you can heat your hot water during off-peak times).

They are a good idea regardless of solar and battery, provided there is adequate grid power and they are used properly. 

Astria said:

I don't see energy prices coming down any time soon, as in fact I think the government will allow gas prices to increase by offering less and less subsidies to try and get people to rely less on it.

I agree, the only way it would drop is if there was huge state investment and the public are not willing to pay the taxes required to fund that so the price will remain tied to international markets. People will have to be much more conscious of their energy usage going forward and the subsidies will be ended, they are unsustainable even in the medium term.

Gerry1

MattMattMattUK said:

The only way to produce hydrogen in a clean, efficient way is to use nuclear power plants to split sea water which means it has to be done at large nuclear plants near the cost. It is also a poor fuel for boilers due to the energy losses from using electric to generate hydrogen which is then burnt, it is more efficient to just use the electricity.

I agree there's not much point in using nuclear to generate hydrogen which is then used to generate heat from boilers, you might as well use the electricity directly.  However, it would allow nuclear stations to run at a constant load and use the excess to generate hydrogen which can be stored.

But what about wind and solar?  Storing the hydrogen generated when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining can avoid the use of coal and gas powered stations when it's still and dark.

Astria

MattMattMattUK said:

Astria said:

Heat pumps are a good idea, if implemented correctly, but really need to be combined with solar panels and battery storage systems, which means they are very expensive to install, but essentially you can get free/cheap energy (Octopus are even doing heatpump friendly tariffs so you can heat your hot water during off-peak times).

They are a good idea regardless of solar and battery, provided there is adequate grid power and they are used properly. 

Yes, what I mean is that even after you have spent 10K for a heat pump, you will likely get very similar bills to your gas equivalents. Yes you will use far less kWh, but the cost of electric being 3.4x the cost of gas means the end bills are pretty much the same. Combine with solar panels and battery bank however means you can use the sun to heat your hot water tank and battery in the day, and then use that energy at night when energy is at peak rate.

FreeBear

Astria said: Heat pumps are a good idea, if implemented correctly, but really need to be combined with solar panels and battery storage systems, which means they are very expensive to install, but essentially you can get free/cheap energy (Octopus are even doing heatpump friendly tariffs so you can heat your hot water during off-peak times).

You also need a decent level of insulation so that you are not wasting heat. Unfortunately, a large number of UK homes are poorly insulated, so just whacking in a heat pump is going to be an expensive proposition to run.