Hydrogen Trial - Big Brother

[Deleted User]

peter3hg said:

Dolor said:

Hydrogen-powered aircraft. Sadly, not that simple (based on 35 years of my life spent in the air):

‘Another major hurdle for hydrogen-fueled flight, according to the International Air Transport Association, will be to introduce and certify new aircraft designs. To run on hydrogen, aircraft need to be redesigned to incorporate larger fuel tanks. For instance, a Boeing 747 jumbo jet would need more than 1 million liters of hydrogen to get roughly the same range as 250,000 liters of jet fuel, The Guardian reports.

Anyone who has operated passenger-flying aircraft knows that considerable effort and money has been put into producing accurate computer-generated jet plans so that aircraft arrive at their destination on legal fuel minimums. Yes, jet engine technology continues to improve; however, when I last operated a large passenger-carrying aircraft for every extra tonne of fuel we carried, we used 7% of it per hour just to carry it. How many passengers would the 747 cited above actually be able to carry? All aircraft have a maximum all up weight.

Yes, we will see hydrogen-fuelled short-range flights but we should expect the cost per seat to increase significantly.

I assume that is talking about using the hydrogen as a straight fuel rather than having a fuel cell powering electric ducted engines.

Hydrogen used in a fuel cell has a usable energy density of about 33.3 kWh/kg compared to 12 kWh/kg for aviation fuel. Therefore there is no technical reason a hydrogen fuel cell powered plane couldn't match or even exceed a current plane in the future. Obviously the technology isn't there at the moment in terms of efficient electric only "jet" engines.

Rolls Royce seems to have a contrarian view (from its website):

Hydrogen-powered flight

Hydrogen can be a source of electrical power or used as a direct fuel for aircraft.

The last 20-years have seen several demonstrator aircraft powered by hydrogen fuel cells. Our research shows that hydrogen fuel cells have the potential to be a substitute for electric batteries in power hybrid or all-electric small commuter aircraft, where they can offer greater energy storage and faster refuelling. There are, however many technology challenges to overcome before these systems are commercially available. Hydrogen fuel cells will probably be limited to medium to low power applications where the power requirements are lower.

While hydrogen can also be used directly as a fuel in a gas turbine, it is likely to start in the shorter haul segments, where the aircraft range is shorter. Given volume limitations attached to the storage of hydrogen and the limited power density of fuel cells, for long range, SAF fuelling gas turbines will remain the most likely solution moving forward. Hydrogen will offer options in shorter range segments and has the potential to progress onto larger segments, as the technology is proven and hydrogen fuel becomes more readily available. To support this, we are investigating the feasibility of hydrogen-burning gas turbine engines, whilst continuing to promote SAF as the more mature technology.

MattMattMattUK

[Deleted User] said:

Hydrogen-powered aircraft. Sadly, not that simple (based on 35 years of my life spent in the air):

‘Another major hurdle for hydrogen-fueled flight, according to the International Air Transport Association, will be to introduce and certify new aircraft designs. To run on hydrogen, aircraft need to be redesigned to incorporate larger fuel tanks. For instance, a Boeing 747 jumbo jet would need more than 1 million liters of hydrogen to get roughly the same range as 250,000 liters of jet fuel, The Guardian reports.

Anyone who has operated passenger-flying aircraft knows that considerable effort and money has been put into producing accurate computer-generated jet plans so that aircraft arrive at their destination on legal fuel minimums. Yes, jet engine technology continues to improve; however, when I last operated a large passenger-carrying aircraft for every extra tonne of fuel we carried, we used 7% of it per hour just to carry it. How many passengers would the 747 cited above actually be able to carry? All aircraft have a maximum all up weight.

The redesigning of aircraft has already begun, the majority of the tanks will also need to be brought into the main body of the aircraft which creates a greater wetted area and/or reduced usable volume, but with new technologies, especially skin materials then that can be mitigated, although not entirely. The hydrogen powered aircraft may well end up being blended wing-body aircraft as part of this. 

Dolor said:

Yes, we will see hydrogen-fuelled short-range flights but we should expect the cost per seat to increase significantly.

I agree we will see costs increase, as they should do. The flight should only happen if it can happen in a carbon neutral way (including accounting for high altitude burning of any relevant fuels) and the cost will have to reflect that. 

oldagetraveller1

Hydrogen wasn't too good for the Hindenburg!

ariarnia

i wish they'd do the trial here. free heat pump and install. we'd sign up on day one. 

[Deleted User]

To get back on topic, hydrogen boilers appear to be following the HD TV route.

In February 2022, the Heating and Hotwater Industry Council revealed a new labelling system for hydrogen appliances that has been agreed by its appliance manufacturers. The new labels will display three distinct categories of hydrogen appliances:

• 'Hydrogen Blend' compatible - capable of running on a blend of up to 20% hydrogen in the gas network.
• 'Hydrogen-Ready' appliances - capable of running on a 20% blend but with the capability of being converted to run on a 100% hydrogen gas network
• '100% Hydrogen' boiler - capable of running on hydrogen without the need for conversion.

FreeBear

Slinky said:

Our new boiler is hydrogen ready.

But what about all the people with older boilers that are not "hydrogen ready" ?

Will they be forced to pay for a new boiler or have their supply cut off ?

There are going to be a significant number that just do not have the money to pay for a boiler conversion or upgrade.

ariarnia

FreeBear said:

Slinky said:

Our new boiler is hydrogen ready.

But what about all the people with older boilers that are not "hydrogen ready" ?

Will they be forced to pay for a new boiler or have their supply cut off ?

There are going to be a significant number that just do not have the money to pay for a boiler conversion or upgrade.

realistically how soon would we expect a full national conversion? if an average boiler lasts 10-15 years then and we're only at the pilot stage in one small village now then natural wastage and replacement might cover a lot. add in a subsidy or incentive scheme like the air pump installation grant and low income support and most wont have a problem (squeezed middle again). 

MarzipanCrumble

TBH I have wondered about 'if your gas boiler breaks down when gas boilers are banned' what happens?  Alot of houses radiators and pipes are not the right size for ASHPs or GSHPs - many people are strugglingto afford the basics - so is the gov going to condone no heating if this happens to you?

ariarnia

MarzipanCrumble said:

TBH I have wondered about 'if your gas boiler breaks down when gas boilers are banned' what happens?  Alot of houses radiators and pipes are not the right size for ASHPs or GSHPs - many people are strugglingto afford the basics - so is the gov going to condone no heating if this happens to you?

the announcement was no new gas boilers from 2025 (which has since been explained to mean no new houses could have gas or oil boilers installed when built)

that doesn't mean you can't have your boiler repaired or even replaced but it might be harder and harder over time to find replacement parts. 

the bigger problem i dont understand is how they could separate out the pipes if people switch to hydrogen one house at a time. it would have to be area by area. and that would need the government to step in and help a hole area switch. 

[Deleted User]

ariarnia said:

FreeBear said:

Slinky said:

Our new boiler is hydrogen ready.

But what about all the people with older boilers that are not "hydrogen ready" ?

Will they be forced to pay for a new boiler or have their supply cut off ?

There are going to be a significant number that just do not have the money to pay for a boiler conversion or upgrade.

realistically how soon would we expect a full national conversion? if an average boiler lasts 10-15 years then and we're only at the pilot stage in one small village now then natural wastage and replacement might cover a lot. add in a subsidy or incentive scheme like the air pump installation grant and low income support and most wont have a problem (squeezed middle again). 

From the Worcester Bosch website:

‘What does ‘Hydrogen blend ready’ mean?

Nearly all gas appliances that are in use today, including our boilers, are able to run on a mixture of hydrogen and natural gas.

This is called a ‘blend’ and sees 20% of the fuel source powering the appliance being hydrogen gas, with the remaining 80% being natural gas.

This means, that when the government begins to increase the amount of ‘green gases’ into the UK gas grid, your customers can be confident their new gas boiler will run for its lifetime without any wholesale changes to switch to an electric boiler for example.’

Full hydrogen is a different proposition. There cannot be a mix of fuels in a given area. It would also require costly improvements to our existing infrastructure.