Ticketed less than 2 mins for unloading (Won at IAS Stage!)

Coupon-mad

KXL88 said:

I've only been told by HA there is a 5 min grace period for unloading / dropping off passengers. There is no mention of any pedestrians walkways by HA nor parking signs stating that. 

I did a stage 1 appeal as I thought it was a straight forward one, insufficient signage plus grace period not adhered to by Link. They got my details from myself when I appealed. 

Whereas my dashcam can't prove I was unloading, as I parked boot nearest door and dashcam is front only, it can only prove I positioned car to unload just after 1747, and the tkt was issued at 1749. Need to see if I can find the footage on when I returned. 

You don't need to justify yourself.  Don't get drawn in by unnecessary questioning here.

We don't need to see any more.  You have an exact match defence for Jopson v Homeguard, and even better, you have saved dashcam footage AND an email from the HA telling residents they can stop to unload for up to 5 minutes (useless time period but you were not in excess of it).

This is a derogation from grant and you'd win in court.  We've already advised you what to send to the kangaroo court of IAS to try to make the PPC run away.

You don't have to answer questions from a poster who isn't a regular and appears to be winding up more than one reader!

diystarter7

KXL88 said:

I've only been told by HA there is a 5 min grace period for unloading / dropping off passengers. There is no mention of any pedestrians walkways by HA nor parking signs stating that. 

I did a stage 1 appeal as I thought it was a straight forward one, insufficient signage plus grace period not adhered to by Link. They got my details from myself when I appealed. 

Whereas my dashcam can't prove I was unloading, as I parked boot nearest door and dashcam is front only, it can only prove I positioned car to unload just after 1747, and the tkt was issued at 1749. Need to see if I can find the footage on when I returned. 

Thanks.

Then point them to the info you read/received, therefore I am with you as you were unloading and you can also unload passengers.

Have you asked others where you live if they have been found for unloading stuff and or passengers and if so did they appeal/win and take it from there?

NB: Can you not cite as per your OP, that when they mentioned the "5 mins grace..." they are not clear about where parking  is allowed and not allowed. In my judgment this may do the trick, what do you think? (I'm referring to your first paragraph in your OP as when I read it again I thought you must put that reason forward.)

You don't need to worry about your dash cam not recording the unloading IMO.

Your choice what you do but as stated above, IMO they can't argue with that.

Good luck..

KXL88

Thanks all,

I will write my appeal based on the below points today/tomorrow. Might take off some points if deemed not required (or doesn't bring any weight).

Of course each I would elaborate more on each point.  

1.      I was not parking, I was merely unloading, Jopson vs Homeguard case shows that unloading is not parking. (Should I bring Bulstrode v Lambert 1953 as well or there is no need?)

2.      I have written confirmation (attach my email proof) that a 5 min grace period is in the contract between Link and HA for whichever purposes deemed fit. Link cannot categorically prove that I had overstayed my 5 mins, but I have dashcam proof that the time elapsed when I started my unloading and the time a ticket was issued was less than 2 minutes (attach proof). (Should I include the warden’s car was stationary for a few mins whilst ticketing when he/she was not unloading anything? Or this doesn’t bring any value to my argument)  

*Should I also reinforce that the IPC code of practice states a grace period along with signage requirements were not followed or your experience indicates that Link and other private parking companies couldn’t really care less to abide by these?  

3.      There are 4 different T&C signs around this apartment blocks, which include, disabled parking with permit displayed, contractor parking only, allocated bay with permit parking, and no parking at any time. There is no such sign visible (to the motorist) when I entered my road. I reject their reasoning that as a resident I should be aware of all these. The parking warden has included a picture of a no parking at any time sign associated T&Cs, that was not the closest sign to where I was unloading, but from a different area/road. (include picture of where I was that shows no such sign exist, and include another of a different sign, which does prohibit parking  and even loading. None of these signs categorically prohibits loading or unloading (except 1, which isn’t a Link parking sign) or mention anything about pedestrian walkways.  

Another point I want to add after reading some of coupon-mad’s other advice back in 2016, the entrance to my apartment blocks is fob controlled by a electronic gate. I have an access fob to open this gate. Where I unloaded, is of course inside the gate. Not sure if that would have any bearing.  

diystarter7

Hi OP
Good luck and I'm sure others will advise if you need to tweak your response.

Let us know how you got on

Good luck and please enjoy your weekend as they go quickly.

Thanks

Umkomaas

I have written confirmation (attach my email proof)

I have dashcam proof that the time elapsed when I started my unloading and the time a ticket was issued was less than 2 minutes (attach proof). 

include picture of where I was that shows no such sign exist

All above are good points of evidence, but for inclusion in your subsequent Witness Statement and evidence bundle some months further down the track. No evidence attaches with a Defence. 

EDIT TO ADD - sorry, I misread this as a Defence, when in fact (as pointed out by @Coupon-mad), it is a second stage appeal, where evidence does need to be included.

Apologies for any confusion. 

Half_way

You should also be getting onto the management agents/housing association as well over this , reminding them that they are jointly liable - and should their agents have accessed your data without just cause ( ie you were unloading and within the agreed times) then they could be liable for a GDPR breach

but essential drag the management company though this, and make sure they know they are jointly liable

Coupon-mad

Umkomaas said:

I have written confirmation (attach my email proof)

I have dashcam proof that the time elapsed when I started my unloading and the time a ticket was issued was less than 2 minutes (attach proof). 

include picture of where I was that shows no such sign exist

All above are good points of evidence, but for inclusion in your subsequent Witness Statement and evidence bundle some months further down the track. No evidence attaches with a Defence. 

This isn't a defence, it's an IAS appeal with evidence.

To the OP, remove this:

"Link cannot categorically prove that I had overstayed my 5 mins, but "

Yes add and upload as evidence, the transcripts of Jopson v Homeguard AND Bulstrode v Lambert.

And bear in mind you cannot copy & paste a pre-written appeal into the IAS box.  You have to type from scratch.

Mouse007

KXL88 said:

(Should I bring Bulstrode v Lambert 1953 as well or there is no need?)

Paragraphs 15 and 16 of the Jopson v Homeguard case adequately cover Bulstrade v Lambert [1953] 1 WLR 1064,

Perhaps add

In Jopson v Homeguard His Honour Judge Harris QC relied upon the Judgment in Bulstrode v Lambert that a right to bring vehicles onto the land and "halt" for the purpose loading and unloading was not unreasonable and doing so was held as a necessary incident of a right of way.

Coupon-mad

But Bulstrode is higher level.

KXL88

You're not going to believe, but I ran into the ticketing person (I only know, as my dashcam recorded his car VRM). So I asked him, politely but firmly, why did you give me a ticket when I was unloading?

"Apparently'" you are only permitted to do that if parked in a disabled space, or on the double yellow lines and he did say, 5 mins grace period. Since no such signs state that (loading/unloading only permiited from double yellow or from disabled bay), I guess this would not deviate from my 2nd appeal anyway.