@jon81uk - with all due respect, I think you may be confusing "made to order" with being "made to the consumer's specifications".
Ordering an Adidas shirt in a standard size with "Messi" on the back might very well end up being made to order for me but (1) it's not been made to my specifications (both the size and the name were made available by Adidas before I placed my order) and (2) I'm certain it is still sellable if I return it under s29.
But if I order a shirt with "$%$$$%makyunnn8974" on the back, I think that although it will definitely still be made to order for me, it will also be made to my specifications and not those of Adidas.
So by your description if they removed the drop-down and replaced it with a simple list you have to retype into a box it would now definitely be a custom order to specification even if it is a common name?
No, because you'd still just be choosing from a list of options specified by the retailer.
Even if I misspelt and put Merci instead of Messi? I still find it odd that choosing the name of a player rather than your own name should make such a big difference to whether it is made to specifications or not.
Feels like if you asked the average person (on the omnibus) they would state that any shirt with a printed name is made to order.
If they allowed that to go through then you arent choosing from a list but have free text entry, the list is just a suggestion.
I do agree however in other circumstances the lines are more blurred... the choose a sleeve length down to 0.1" increments from a drop down -v- the free text box for the length in inches to 1dp
The problem is that its not MTO that makes an item unreturnable, its where it is bespoke to you. Choosing from a list of options may mean there are a vast number of combinations available and so they may want to rationalise them but they arent bespoke... you cant choose to have Bale's name on a Qatar shirt.
The other thing there however is it comes under Dutch law not English. Most UK consumer protection law stems from the EU and so its likely Dutch law is similar but there can be differences.
You can have Bale on a Qatar shirt, just type it in the box.
I know my opinion is in the minority but I still feel that the specification is decided by the customers choices and there isn't enough legal precedent to clarify why it should be a difference between clicking and typing.
With this item the OP choose it from the preset options. The item does allow personalisation at which point it gives a free text box and if you use that then no right of return exists for change of mind.
If you can type whatever you want its personalised, if you can only choose from present combinations then its standard (even if its MTO and even if there are millions of combinations). You can understand logistically why with so many combinations things become MTO but that impacts the leadtime not the consumer rights.
Clearly if Adidas is concerned that if you change your mind about your Girl 4-5 Spanish shirt with Unai Simon on the back that they cannot then sell it to someone else... dont offer it in the drop down, let someone use the free text and avoid the ability to return.
Where in UK law does it distinguish that having an item made to your specification by choosing that from a list is different?
Again, I think that if you asked most people if having an item made to order with a name on the back they would not see any difference between selecting the name of a professional player or choosing an alternative. The item is still being customised to order at the customers specification.
@jon81uk - with all due respect, I think you may be confusing "made to order" with being "made to the consumer's specifications".
Ordering an Adidas shirt in a standard size with "Messi" on the back might very well end up being made to order for me but (1) it's not been made to my specifications (both the size and the name were made available by Adidas before I placed my order) and (2) I'm certain it is still sellable if I return it under s29.
But if I order a shirt with "$%$$$%makyunnn8974" on the back, I think that although it will definitely still be made to order for me, it will also be made to my specifications and not those of Adidas.
So by your description if they removed the drop-down and replaced it with a simple list you have to retype into a box it would now definitely be a custom order to specification even if it is a common name?
No, because you'd still just be choosing from a list of options specified by the retailer.
Even if I misspelt and put Merci instead of Messi? I still find it odd that choosing the name of a player rather than your own name should make such a big difference to whether it is made to specifications or not.
Feels like if you asked the average person (on the omnibus) they would state that any shirt with a printed name is made to order.
If they allowed that to go through then you arent choosing from a list but have free text entry, the list is just a suggestion.
I do agree however in other circumstances the lines are more blurred... the choose a sleeve length down to 0.1" increments from a drop down -v- the free text box for the length in inches to 1dp
The problem is that its not MTO that makes an item unreturnable, its where it is bespoke to you. Choosing from a list of options may mean there are a vast number of combinations available and so they may want to rationalise them but they arent bespoke... you cant choose to have Bale's name on a Qatar shirt.
The other thing there however is it comes under Dutch law not English. Most UK consumer protection law stems from the EU and so its likely Dutch law is similar but there can be differences.
You can have Bale on a Qatar shirt, just type it in the box.
I know my opinion is in the minority but I still feel that the specification is decided by the customers choices and there isn't enough legal precedent to clarify why it should be a difference between clicking and typing.
With this item the OP choose it from the preset options. The item does allow personalisation at which point it gives a free text box and if you use that then no right of return exists for change of mind.
If you can type whatever you want its personalised, if you can only choose from present combinations then its standard (even if its MTO and even if there are millions of combinations). You can understand logistically why with so many combinations things become MTO but that impacts the leadtime not the consumer rights.
Clearly if Adidas is concerned that if you change your mind about your Girl 4-5 Spanish shirt with Unai Simon on the back that they cannot then sell it to someone else... dont offer it in the drop down, let someone use the free text and avoid the ability to return.
Where in UK law does it distinguish that having an item made to your specification by choosing that from a list is different?
Again, I think that if you asked most people if having an item made to order with a name on the back they would not see any difference between selecting the name of a professional player or choosing an alternative. The item is still being customised to order at the customers specification.
The reality is we have no idea what they've pre-printed and what they are printing to order. It'd be highly peculiar if they havent bulk ordered the big stars in the most common sizes/variants and yet they say all are non-returnable. Back in my mailorder days we'd do the same, hold stock of the stars and effectively dropship the reserve goalies etc.
Clearly their free text box entry isnt going to have many No 13 - DullGreyGuy sitting on the shelf ready for people to order.
@jon81uk - with all due respect, I think you may be confusing "made to order" with being "made to the consumer's specifications".
Ordering an Adidas shirt in a standard size with "Messi" on the back might very well end up being made to order for me but (1) it's not been made to my specifications (both the size and the name were made available by Adidas before I placed my order) and (2) I'm certain it is still sellable if I return it under s29.
But if I order a shirt with "$%$$$%makyunnn8974" on the back, I think that although it will definitely still be made to order for me, it will also be made to my specifications and not those of Adidas.
So by your description if they removed the drop-down and replaced it with a simple list you have to retype into a box it would now definitely be a custom order to specification even if it is a common name?
No, because you'd still just be choosing from a list of options specified by the retailer.
Even if I misspelt and put Merci instead of Messi? I still find it odd that choosing the name of a player rather than your own name should make such a big difference to whether it is made to specifications or not.
Feels like if you asked the average person (on the omnibus) they would state that any shirt with a printed name is made to order.
If they allowed that to go through then you arent choosing from a list but have free text entry, the list is just a suggestion.
I do agree however in other circumstances the lines are more blurred... the choose a sleeve length down to 0.1" increments from a drop down -v- the free text box for the length in inches to 1dp
The problem is that its not MTO that makes an item unreturnable, its where it is bespoke to you. Choosing from a list of options may mean there are a vast number of combinations available and so they may want to rationalise them but they arent bespoke... you cant choose to have Bale's name on a Qatar shirt.
The other thing there however is it comes under Dutch law not English. Most UK consumer protection law stems from the EU and so its likely Dutch law is similar but there can be differences.
You can have Bale on a Qatar shirt, just type it in the box.
I know my opinion is in the minority but I still feel that the specification is decided by the customers choices and there isn't enough legal precedent to clarify why it should be a difference between clicking and typing.
With this item the OP choose it from the preset options. The item does allow personalisation at which point it gives a free text box and if you use that then no right of return exists for change of mind.
If you can type whatever you want its personalised, if you can only choose from present combinations then its standard (even if its MTO and even if there are millions of combinations). You can understand logistically why with so many combinations things become MTO but that impacts the leadtime not the consumer rights.
Clearly if Adidas is concerned that if you change your mind about your Girl 4-5 Spanish shirt with Unai Simon on the back that they cannot then sell it to someone else... dont offer it in the drop down, let someone use the free text and avoid the ability to return.
Where in UK law does it distinguish that having an item made to your specification by choosing that from a list is different?
Again, I think that if you asked most people if having an item made to order with a name on the back they would not see any difference between selecting the name of a professional player or choosing an alternative. The item is still being customised to order at the customers specification.
The reality is we have no idea what they've pre-printed and what they are printing to order. It'd be highly peculiar if they havent bulk ordered the big stars in the most common sizes/variants and yet they say all are non-returnable. Back in my mailorder days we'd do the same, hold stock of the stars and effectively dropship the reserve goalies etc.
Clearly their free text box entry isnt going to have many No 13 - DullGreyGuy sitting on the shelf ready for people to order.
I'm fairly certain that if you buy a shirt from a sports shop (JD Sports or Sports Direct or whatever) with a name on the back it's the sport shop that does the printing and therefore the item can't be returned back to the manufacturer unless its faulty. So to me that's what matters is whether the item can be returned and the retailer is not out of pocket.
Now the interesting thing here is I don't know when you are buying direct from a manufacturer how the thing works. I suspect that Adidas UK or Europe or whatever are buying non-named shirts from Adidas Global or from a third party manufacturer and adding the names themselves. Which would make it the same as buying from a sports shop. I doubt that Adidas pre-order X number of shirts with Messi - that's going to be a very tricky process to manage. Say for example, that Adidas got 100,000 PSG shirts with Messi printed on them and then he's sold to AC Milan the next day.
If you're arguing that Adidas should accept returns of shirts with names on them then at the very least that's putting a burden back on Adidas to be able to manage that process which seems unfair to some extent.
Which of course doesn't negate the size potentially being wrong - which very much is an Adidas issue if true.
I'm fairly certain that if you buy a shirt from a sports shop (JD Sports or Sports Direct or whatever) with a name on the back it's the sport shop that does the printing and therefore the item can't be returned back to the manufacturer unless its faulty. So to me that's what matters is whether the item can be returned and the retailer is not out of pocket.
The relationship between the manufacture and trader has nothing to do with consumer rights at all.
The consideration you mention for the retailer being "out of pocket" is simplistic, they will already be out of pocket anyway as the whole idea of change of mind returns costs them money, not just loss of profit but cost of staff to pack, etc and a courier to deliver which they won't get back.
The intention of the regs appears to be that if you sell a product and the customer returns it you can sell it to someone else.
If it's custom then the odds of someone else buying it are slim so these things are exempt to save the trader from exceptional hardship.
However if the so-called customisation is a dropdown menu choice then it is likely someone else will order the same goods and the burden of being lumbered with something that won't sell again is reduced. Retailers offering choice via drop down don't have obscure choices that will apply to one customer. It is a way for them to vary choice beyond 1 but equally limit it to less than everything.
Of course you could have dropdown options that result in thousands of combinations but that would be for the benefit of the trader to increase their sales and in doing so they bear the risk of having to accept a return on a combination that isn't popular.
The size 9-10 years fits my 8 year old (Sept Birthday) perfectly.
It would not fit any 10 year old I know.
Adidas still refusing to accept refunds.
Apologies if I've missed it, but what shirt(s) did you buy? What team (club or country) and what player's name?
I've just looked on their site and I've selected the men's Argentina home 2022 world cup shirt and I've selected Messi's name and number from a drop down box. (Only XL size still available)
Did you follow the same process? ie you slected a team, selected a shirt, and then selected a player's name from a drop down list? Or did you type in a name? (I note that some of the club shirts don't have a drop down option for a player name and you have to type a name in).
I would still argue (as I did in my earlier posts) that if you are selecting the name of an existing player (eg Messi for Argentina) from a list of options provided by Adidas in a drop down box, then you are neither personalising the shirt nor asking for it to be produced to your own specifications. The shirt is clearly not "personal" to you and although it is printed with a name selected by you, the name is one provided by Adidas as an option.
Yes - when you are making your name selection Adidas do claim that you are "personalising" your shirt, but just because they say so doesn't make it true!
So long as you selected the name from a list of options provided by Adidas, the shirts are neither personalised nor made to your specifications. You really need to go back and argue this point with them.
(Again it would be helpful to know what shirt you ordered and what player's name)
If Adidas remain intransigent I'd initiate a chargeback* with my bank if I were you. Point out to your bank that Adidas are simply wrong in claiming that selecting a name from a drop down field that they've populated themselves "personalises" the product. It does not!
*I'm assuming you would be unable to make a s75 claim as each of the shirts is < £100?.
(Again - apologies if you didn't pay by card and I've missed that fact. Edit: I see you paid by debit card, but I suppose the question is whether a chargeback applies in this sort of situation. Possibly not...)
The size 9-10 years fits my 8 year old (Sept Birthday) perfectly.
It would not fit any 10 year old I know.
Adidas still refusing to accept refunds.
Apologies if I've missed it, but what shirt(s) did you buy? What team (club or country) and what player's name?
I've just looked on their site and I've selected the men's Argentina home 2022 world cup shirt and I've selected Messi's name and number from a drop down box. (Only XL size still available)
Did you follow the same process? ie you slected a team, selected a shirt, and then selected a player's name from a drop down list? Or did you type in a name? (I note that some of the club shirts don't have a drop down option for a player name and you have to type a name in).
I would still argue (as I did in my earlier posts) that if you are selecting the name of an existing player (eg Messi for Argentina) from a list of options provided by Adidas in a drop down box, then you are neither personalising the shirt nor asking for it to be produced to your own specifications. The shirt is clearly not "personal" to you and although it is printed with a name selected by you, the name is one provided by Adidas as an option.
Yes - when you are making your name selection Adidas do claim that you are "personalising" your shirt, but just because they say so doesn't make it true!
So long as you selected the name from a list of options provided by Adidas, the shirts are neither personalised nor made to your specifications. You really need to go back and argue this point with them.
(Again it would be helpful to know what shirt you ordered and what player's name)
This is where the law needs to be tested in court so it is clarified.
I think if you are asking for Messi to be put on the back it is being made to your specifications even if the name is picked from 24 different names. Your specification is Messi on the back of a size 9-10 shirt.
There is nothing in law currently stating either way what made to th customers specifications means.
Replies
Again, I think that if you asked most people if having an item made to order with a name on the back they would not see any difference between selecting the name of a professional player or choosing an alternative. The item is still being customised to order at the customers specification.
Clearly their free text box entry isnt going to have many No 13 - DullGreyGuy sitting on the shelf ready for people to order.
The size 9-10 years fits my 8 year old (Sept Birthday) perfectly.
It would not fit any 10 year old I know.
Adidas still refusing to accept refunds.
Now the interesting thing here is I don't know when you are buying direct from a manufacturer how the thing works. I suspect that Adidas UK or Europe or whatever are buying non-named shirts from Adidas Global or from a third party manufacturer and adding the names themselves. Which would make it the same as buying from a sports shop. I doubt that Adidas pre-order X number of shirts with Messi - that's going to be a very tricky process to manage. Say for example, that Adidas got 100,000 PSG shirts with Messi printed on them and then he's sold to AC Milan the next day.
If you're arguing that Adidas should accept returns of shirts with names on them then at the very least that's putting a burden back on Adidas to be able to manage that process which seems unfair to some extent.
Which of course doesn't negate the size potentially being wrong - which very much is an Adidas issue if true.
The consideration you mention for the retailer being "out of pocket" is simplistic, they will already be out of pocket anyway as the whole idea of change of mind returns costs them money, not just loss of profit but cost of staff to pack, etc and a courier to deliver which they won't get back.
The intention of the regs appears to be that if you sell a product and the customer returns it you can sell it to someone else.
If it's custom then the odds of someone else buying it are slim so these things are exempt to save the trader from exceptional hardship.
However if the so-called customisation is a dropdown menu choice then it is likely someone else will order the same goods and the burden of being lumbered with something that won't sell again is reduced. Retailers offering choice via drop down don't have obscure choices that will apply to one customer. It is a way for them to vary choice beyond 1 but equally limit it to less than everything.
Of course you could have dropdown options that result in thousands of combinations but that would be for the benefit of the trader to increase their sales and in doing so they bear the risk of having to accept a return on a combination that isn't popular.
I've just looked on their site and I've selected the men's Argentina home 2022 world cup shirt and I've selected Messi's name and number from a drop down box. (Only XL size still available)
Did you follow the same process? ie you slected a team, selected a shirt, and then selected a player's name from a drop down list? Or did you type in a name? (I note that some of the club shirts don't have a drop down option for a player name and you have to type a name in).
I would still argue (as I did in my earlier posts) that if you are selecting the name of an existing player (eg Messi for Argentina) from a list of options provided by Adidas in a drop down box, then you are neither personalising the shirt nor asking for it to be produced to your own specifications. The shirt is clearly not "personal" to you and although it is printed with a name selected by you, the name is one provided by Adidas as an option.
Yes - when you are making your name selection Adidas do claim that you are "personalising" your shirt, but just because they say so doesn't make it true!
So long as you selected the name from a list of options provided by Adidas, the shirts are neither personalised nor made to your specifications. You really need to go back and argue this point with them.
(Again it would be helpful to know what shirt you ordered and what player's name)
According to Adidas' T&Cs (posted previously by @sheramber) if you wanted to go to court you'd have to do it in the Netherlands...
But 2.14 of their T&Cs confirms that your statutory rights in this country remain unaffected, and 2.14 actually reflects almost exactly the cancellation provisons of Part 3 of The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation.gov.uk).
If Adidas remain intransigent I'd initiate a chargeback* with my bank if I were you. Point out to your bank that Adidas are simply wrong in claiming that selecting a name from a drop down field that they've populated themselves "personalises" the product. It does not!
*I'm assuming you would be unable to make a s75 claim as each of the shirts is < £100?.
(Again - apologies if you didn't pay by card and I've missed that fact. Edit: I see you paid by debit card, but I suppose the question is whether a chargeback applies in this sort of situation. Possibly not...)