freedom to speak up experience

Undervalued

Savvy_Sue said:

elsien said:

diystarter7 said:

Ath_Wat said:

diystarter7 said:

What connection between my post you quoted that clearly stated the subject matter as "UnionFees," and you start talking about  "insurance"  lack of resulting in "house fires"



Perhaps you got threads confused?  

Ok.

You buy insurance in case you need it, because if you could buy it when your house started burning down and you need it, everyone would do that, and insurers wouldn't have any income, so they don't allow that.

You join a union in case you need them, because if you could join them just when something goes wrong and you do need them, then everyone would do that and they wouldn't have any income, so unions don't allow that (as a general rule). 

I really didn't think that would be a struggle for anyone.

I have nothing more to add as I'm clear, joining a union, one can join after a problem has started - one clearly can't do that once the damage to the house has occurred as you state. I really don't believe this topic is not clear-cut re problems at work and then being in a union. 

Take care.

That’s not correct.
Or rather unions tend to have a rule that if you already have a problem with your employer before you join there is a waiting period before you can raise the issue. 

Because it breaks the union model if people only pay their subscriptions when they have to.

Hence Ath Wats analogy to house insurance, which was perfectly clear to me. 

I agree that's the usual model, and the better comparison is probably to travel  insurance: many people only take it out just before travel, but that can be too late: don't wait until you need it, don't wait until you might need it, buy it when you book. 

But back to unions: I don't doubt that diy found he could get help as soon as he joined, I have known that happen, BUT that is the exception, and it's really not a good idea to wait until you have a problem.

When I saw it happen, the union was very keen to increase membership, and existing members were keen to get employer recognition. Someone was sent home under investigation, don't talk to anyone etc, and the union agreed to give immediate support even though they'd only just joined.

Indeed.

Whilst most unions will provide general help and support immediately after joining specific representation and / or funding legal action almost always has a deferment period for obvious reasons. Normally the only exception is if the union, at its absolute discretion, feels that the issue is of wider importance rather than just benefiting the individual new member.

diystarter7

Savvy_Sue said:

elsien said:

diystarter7 said:

Ath_Wat said:

diystarter7 said:

What connection between my post you quoted that clearly stated the subject matter as "UnionFees," and you start talking about  "insurance"  lack of resulting in "house fires"



Perhaps you got threads confused?  

Ok.

You buy insurance in case you need it, because if you could buy it when your house started burning down and you need it, everyone would do that, and insurers wouldn't have any income, so they don't allow that.

You join a union in case you need them, because if you could join them just when something goes wrong and you do need them, then everyone would do that and they wouldn't have any income, so unions don't allow that (as a general rule). 

I really didn't think that would be a struggle for anyone.

I have nothing more to add as I'm clear, joining a union, one can join after a problem has started - one clearly can't do that once the damage to the house has occurred as you state. I really don't believe this topic is not clear-cut re problems at work and then being in a union. 

Take care.

That’s not correct.
Or rather unions tend to have a rule that if you already have a problem with your employer before you join there is a waiting period before you can raise the issue. 

Because it breaks the union model if people only pay their subscriptions when they have to.

Hence Ath Wats analogy to house insurance, which was perfectly clear to me. 

I agree that's the usual model, and the better comparison is probably to travel  insurance: many people only take it out just before travel, but that can be too late: don't wait until you need it, don't wait until you might need it, buy it when you book. 

But back to unions: I don't doubt that diy found he could get help as soon as he joined, I have known that happen, BUT that is the exception, and it's really not a good idea to wait until you have a problem.

When I saw it happen, the union was very keen to increase membership, and existing members were keen to get employer recognition. Someone was sent home under investigation, don't talk to anyone etc, and the union agreed to give immediate support even though they'd only just joined.

Thank you, exactly that, one can get support and almost always free advice but even full support at times after the event.
However and very clearly one can't do that once the house has burnt down, ie start buildings insurance and hope to make a claim. The two scenarios are completely different and I'm not sure why a couple of posters find it hard to note the difference.
Thank you.

Ath_Wat

diystarter7 said:

Savvy_Sue said:

elsien said:

diystarter7 said:

Ath_Wat said:

diystarter7 said:

What connection between my post you quoted that clearly stated the subject matter as "UnionFees," and you start talking about  "insurance"  lack of resulting in "house fires"



Perhaps you got threads confused?  

Ok.

You buy insurance in case you need it, because if you could buy it when your house started burning down and you need it, everyone would do that, and insurers wouldn't have any income, so they don't allow that.

You join a union in case you need them, because if you could join them just when something goes wrong and you do need them, then everyone would do that and they wouldn't have any income, so unions don't allow that (as a general rule). 

I really didn't think that would be a struggle for anyone.

I have nothing more to add as I'm clear, joining a union, one can join after a problem has started - one clearly can't do that once the damage to the house has occurred as you state. I really don't believe this topic is not clear-cut re problems at work and then being in a union. 

Take care.

That’s not correct.
Or rather unions tend to have a rule that if you already have a problem with your employer before you join there is a waiting period before you can raise the issue. 

Because it breaks the union model if people only pay their subscriptions when they have to.

Hence Ath Wats analogy to house insurance, which was perfectly clear to me. 

I agree that's the usual model, and the better comparison is probably to travel  insurance: many people only take it out just before travel, but that can be too late: don't wait until you need it, don't wait until you might need it, buy it when you book. 

But back to unions: I don't doubt that diy found he could get help as soon as he joined, I have known that happen, BUT that is the exception, and it's really not a good idea to wait until you have a problem.

When I saw it happen, the union was very keen to increase membership, and existing members were keen to get employer recognition. Someone was sent home under investigation, don't talk to anyone etc, and the union agreed to give immediate support even though they'd only just joined.

Thank you, exactly that, one can get support and almost always free advice but even full support at times after the event.
However and very clearly one can't do that once the house has burnt down, ie start buildings insurance and hope to make a claim. The two scenarios are completely different and I'm not sure why a couple of posters find it hard to note the difference.
Thank you.

Everyone else understands the analogy.  I really can't help you any more if you still can't.

diystarter7

Ath_Wat said:

diystarter7 said:

Savvy_Sue said:

elsien said:

diystarter7 said:

Ath_Wat said:

diystarter7 said:

What connection between my post you quoted that clearly stated the subject matter as "UnionFees," and you start talking about  "insurance"  lack of resulting in "house fires"



Perhaps you got threads confused?  

Ok.

You buy insurance in case you need it, because if you could buy it when your house started burning down and you need it, everyone would do that, and insurers wouldn't have any income, so they don't allow that.

You join a union in case you need them, because if you could join them just when something goes wrong and you do need them, then everyone would do that and they wouldn't have any income, so unions don't allow that (as a general rule). 

I really didn't think that would be a struggle for anyone.

I have nothing more to add as I'm clear, joining a union, one can join after a problem has started - one clearly can't do that once the damage to the house has occurred as you state. I really don't believe this topic is not clear-cut re problems at work and then being in a union. 

Take care.

That’s not correct.
Or rather unions tend to have a rule that if you already have a problem with your employer before you join there is a waiting period before you can raise the issue. 

Because it breaks the union model if people only pay their subscriptions when they have to.

Hence Ath Wats analogy to house insurance, which was perfectly clear to me. 

I agree that's the usual model, and the better comparison is probably to travel  insurance: many people only take it out just before travel, but that can be too late: don't wait until you need it, don't wait until you might need it, buy it when you book. 

But back to unions: I don't doubt that diy found he could get help as soon as he joined, I have known that happen, BUT that is the exception, and it's really not a good idea to wait until you have a problem.

When I saw it happen, the union was very keen to increase membership, and existing members were keen to get employer recognition. Someone was sent home under investigation, don't talk to anyone etc, and the union agreed to give immediate support even though they'd only just joined.

Thank you, exactly that, one can get support and almost always free advice but even full support at times after the event.
However and very clearly one can't do that once the house has burnt down, ie start buildings insurance and hope to make a claim. The two scenarios are completely different and I'm not sure why a couple of posters find it hard to note the difference.
Thank you.

Everyone else understands the analogy.  I really can't help you any more if you still can't.

I'm not going to lie and say I understand something when I don't and there is another poster here that agrees with me so it is not "everyone."   I'll stick to what I feel is right and have nothing else to add as I and others have tried to explain the difference but for whatever reason, you are still comparing the burning down of a house and then insuring it with a union query and joing the union after the problem has started. In simple terms, 100% fact if your property burns down and you take out insurance afterward, you are not insured for the rebuild. 

 Having a problem at work that has been simmering for a while/etc, one can join a union after the even and they will often help you re that problem. 

Ath_Wat

diystarter7 said:

Ath_Wat said:

diystarter7 said:

Savvy_Sue said:

elsien said:

diystarter7 said:

Ath_Wat said:

diystarter7 said:

What connection between my post you quoted that clearly stated the subject matter as "UnionFees," and you start talking about  "insurance"  lack of resulting in "house fires"



Perhaps you got threads confused?  

Ok.

You buy insurance in case you need it, because if you could buy it when your house started burning down and you need it, everyone would do that, and insurers wouldn't have any income, so they don't allow that.

You join a union in case you need them, because if you could join them just when something goes wrong and you do need them, then everyone would do that and they wouldn't have any income, so unions don't allow that (as a general rule). 

I really didn't think that would be a struggle for anyone.

I have nothing more to add as I'm clear, joining a union, one can join after a problem has started - one clearly can't do that once the damage to the house has occurred as you state. I really don't believe this topic is not clear-cut re problems at work and then being in a union. 

Take care.

That’s not correct.
Or rather unions tend to have a rule that if you already have a problem with your employer before you join there is a waiting period before you can raise the issue. 

Because it breaks the union model if people only pay their subscriptions when they have to.

Hence Ath Wats analogy to house insurance, which was perfectly clear to me. 

I agree that's the usual model, and the better comparison is probably to travel  insurance: many people only take it out just before travel, but that can be too late: don't wait until you need it, don't wait until you might need it, buy it when you book. 

But back to unions: I don't doubt that diy found he could get help as soon as he joined, I have known that happen, BUT that is the exception, and it's really not a good idea to wait until you have a problem.

When I saw it happen, the union was very keen to increase membership, and existing members were keen to get employer recognition. Someone was sent home under investigation, don't talk to anyone etc, and the union agreed to give immediate support even though they'd only just joined.

Thank you, exactly that, one can get support and almost always free advice but even full support at times after the event.
However and very clearly one can't do that once the house has burnt down, ie start buildings insurance and hope to make a claim. The two scenarios are completely different and I'm not sure why a couple of posters find it hard to note the difference.
Thank you.

Everyone else understands the analogy.  I really can't help you any more if you still can't.

I'm not going to lie and say I understand something when I don't and there is another poster here that agrees with me so it is not "everyone."   I'll stick to what I feel is right and have nothing else to add as I and others have tried to explain the difference but for whatever reason, you are still comparing the burning down of a house and then insuring it with a union query and joing the union after the problem has started. In simple terms, 100% fact if your property burns down and you take out insurance afterward, you are not insured for the rebuild. 

 Having a problem at work that has been simmering for a while/etc, one can join a union after the even and they will often help you re that problem. 

You keep on saying things like "they will often help you re that problem"  when everyone is telling you that is the exception rather than the norm. Even the person you think was agreeing with you said that.  Reread the part you said "thank you" to.  It said :
" I don't doubt that diy found he could get help as soon as he joined, I have known that happen, BUT that is the exception, and it's really not a good idea to wait until you have a problem."

Honestly, I have explained it in the simplest terms imaginable.  I genuinely can't help any more.  I get that you still don't understand, I can't help with that.

Jude57

In a working life of 40+ years and as a Union steward, branch officer and regional officer in that time I can confirm that, while you can certainly join after encountering a problem at work, the level of support you can expect for that issue will be minimal with few exceptions. One exception would be where your issue is one that affects other members, say unequal pay. In that case, it's an issue the Union would take on, even if longer-standing members haven't raised it. If the issue only affects you, the Union are unlikely to provide much (if anything) beyond basic (steward level) advice. 

I've always likened Union membership to home insurance in that paying for it is a necessary cost, you hope you'll never need to use it but you'll be very glad to have it if you do need to claim. And the analogy is further supported by the fact that you can't claim for last week's fire/flood damage to your home via the policy you set up yesterday.