Smart Meters : E-On sneaky new “end of meter life” tactic

[Deleted User]

SAC2334 said:

Deleted_User said:

doodling said:

Hi,

Deleted_User said:

doodling said:

Hi,

Deleted_User said:

giraffe69 said:

Court orders, going off grid!! The amount of hysteria about the fitting of smart maters from some is quite extraordinary. Having a hissy fit because someone wants to change a meter seems excessive. The point where all or nearly all have such a meter can no doubt be a bit delayed by refuseniks but in the end the going off grid method is not very likely to appeal to very many. FWIW I have had such a meter for a couple of years now without problem (once connection was established) despite some on here telling me I'd have my brain fried by radiation or the suppliers would cut me off or my bills would get higher(of course they have but not for that reason).

You seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar over the fact that people make different choices to you?

I wouldn't call it a hissy fit for people to say 'no' to a smart meter. If others want to take a 'hissy fit' and try and force it on people with court orders then let them. Those that don't want it just need to stand their ground and refuse to cave into the pressure. If it comes to court orders then there will be enough people to band together to fight it. So no need for hissy fits and hysteria. Just say no!! LOL

As for going off-grid - a lot of people would LOVE to do that. Currently it's made difficult by the costs involved in getting energy meters removed from your property. Until you do that you're stuck with a standing charge even if you don't use any energy. 

How does any of this help an elderly and confused lady?  She isn't going to be going off grid and there is absolutely no benefit in her fighting the energy company on this.  No-one is going to "band together" with an old lady to fight a court order - she'll just have a lot of stress whilst the process grinds on.

The reality is that the energy supplier can fit a smart meter if they want to (and Ofgem agree).

Unless the elderly and confused lady is bored and wants to make a big issue of this, which will lead to lots of unnecessary stress and is almost certainly not in her interest then the best advice is to encourage her to agree to it.

If you read my posts before responding you won't need to ask that question.

As I explained - SHE doesn't need to fight the energy company. Other people with more at stake will do that. She just has to sit tight and say no to a smart meter if she doesn't want it. 

If the energy company want to pick a fight and obtain a court order to force a smart meter on an elderly and confused lady - then they can do so. But she doesn't need to worry. At the point where the energy company have that legal document she can decide what she wants to do. I think it very unlikely it'll ever get to that point. The energy company will pick on plenty of people before they get to her - people that ARE in a strong position to take on the legal challenge. 

I'm sorry but that's breathtakingly naive.

The energy supplier doesn't have a list of premises where they want to fit smart meters sorted by difficultly, with the ability of customers to push themselves down that list depending on how intransigent they are being.

They will have a requirement, driven by law and regulation to ensure that they have a suitable calibrated meter at the customers premises and they will follow a process to ensure that happens.  That process won't be affected by the actions of other customers.

Your suggestion that once the OPs contact has a warrent in her hand she can decide what to do is absurd - if she has the warrant in her hand, the odds are there will be someone at her property fitting the meter as she reads it.  If she decides to object at that point it will become a police matter.

The energy company WON'T get a court order. That's my point. People are fear-mongering. In my post above I've posted advice from Citizen Advice and from Which? - you do NOT need to accept a smart meter. If your energy company tries to force you Citizens Advice say contact them. Which say if they try to tell you your meter needs replacing ask them to tell you why - and if they say it's dangerous demand proof.

No court will issue and order because the information in the public domain is clear - people can refuse a smart meter.

The lady is afraid they'll replace it without her permission. They won't. The fact that they'd need a court order to do that should put her mind at rest that it won't happen without her prior knowledge. No court will give that order as things stand right now. If the situation changes and your right to refuse is withdrawn there are plenty of young, capable people that will take on that legal battle.

The old lady can relax. No one is going to change her meter against her wishes. 

Citizens Advice don t say that  you don t have to accept a smart meter .Read it carefully and they say you "might have to accept one if the supplier does not have a none smart meter in stock " 

I know they are on sale and are easily available but if the supplier "does not have one in stock " then that angle is covered .
Citizens advice also say they may be able to fit a smart meter without the smart meter communications actually working .

Personally I will agree with you that Eon won t be taking out any warrants of access.. I could nt get them to come out to fiddled meters which were incredibly dangerous. They had a more or less absent Revenue Protection Unit who would never answer phone calls or emails when i found Eon meters bypassed 

. 

If you need a meter fitted then that might apply.

But this lady has a functioning meter. The energy company can't insist on replacing it without giving sound reasons and evidence. They haven't done that. They're trying to pull a fast one by telling people their meters have reached the end of it's life.(I got a similar letter from EDF and my house isn't even 20 years old yet). Until they produce evidence of that there is no need to change the meter. Even if they say it's unsafe they need to provide evidence. 

Spoonie_Turtle

Citizens Advice are excellent but they are not the ones the make the rules (the rules as laid down by law).

Suppliers have a legal obligation to make sure that meters they are supplying comply with the law.  Certification periods vary; from this document they appear to mostly be 10/15/20 years, although there's one of 5 years and another of 45! https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1056244/Schedule_4_-_31st_January_2022.pdf

Suppliers also are obliged to "take all reasonable steps to install a compliant smart meter wherever a meter is replaced or where a meter is installed for the first time". (Electricity Supply Licence SLC 39.7 & Gas Supply Licence SLC 33.7 - source Ofgem letter https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2021/03/open_letter_on_smart_meter_rollout_delivery_and_regulatory_obligations_2021_002.pdf *)  Who determines what is reasonable is very likely to be Ofgem [or whomever else enforces the law around supplying energy], rather than the consumer.



*As an aside addressed to other members, the letter says another condition of their licence is to take all reasonable action to make sure smart meters are fully functioning - could this be ammo for people who aren't getting anywhere with getting their smart meters sorted out?  Depending on the situation, obviously.  " … it is critical that suppliers operate smart meters in smart mode and we note that suppliers are obligated to take all reasonable steps to do so in line with the OLC"  (Electricity Supply Licence SLC 49 and Gas Supply Licence SLC 43)

[Deleted User]

The point is, Citizens Advice know what the rules are and they are telling people they DON'T need to accept a change to a smart meter and if energy companies are trying to force them they should contact CA for advice.

Just because an energy company tells you they want to do something it doesn't follow that they can. If they CAN legally do it then you have to consider whether you want to tell them to just remove their obsolete meters and go off-grid......if the law is against you that's your only way forwards.

But at this point the energy company hasn't demonstrated that they have a legal right. As I've said, they've sent me telling me my meter has reached then end of it's life - my house isn't even 20 years old. 

Energy companies have quotas to meet. When they're working in an area they want to get as many meters fitted in that area as possible. So they are using bullying tactics to try and push people into it. Resist the bullying until they move out of your area and you likely won't hear for them for years! As you say - people that have demonstrably faulty smart meters can't get the energy companies out to fix them.

Anyway, the smart meters are going to be obsolete in a few years time when everything switches to 5G. So they'll have to go through this whole process again - putting our energy bills up even higher to pay for it.

NOT an option for this old lady (probably) but it's really reaching the point where getting off-grid is the only real solution for a lot of people. The technology is not quite there (to fill the solar gap in deepest winter). But for people without kids to worry about it's probably doable with a bit of creative thinking. That's probably the best place for a lot of us to focus our efforts.

Out of interest - prior to the the smart meter fixation has anyone had a meter changed? We sold my mums house when it was 40 years old and the meter had never been changed. Mum in law lived in her house for a similar amount of time - still had the original meter when we sold. We've lived in various old properties - all with clearly ancient meters and no one ever felt the need to replace them. 

CanNeverThinkOfAUsername

Well, this thread has taken a turn from when i last read it

For what it's worth i do not feel like E.ON are being "sneaky". All meters have a end of life date and when this happens the energy supplier will exchange the meter, and it will be a smart meter these days. If someone truly does not want a smart meter they can have it installed in "Dumb Mode", so it does not connect to the supplier/DCC, and you would just take manual readings. But just remember you would not have any of the Smart Meter perks then, so no cheaper tariff, cheaper unit rates, free elec on Xmas Day like Octopus did a few years ago etc.

No drama, it's all very simple

[Deleted User]

The point is, Citizens Advice know what the rules are and they are telling people they DON'T need to accept a change to a smart meter and if energy companies are trying to force them they should contact CA for advice.

CA is 100% correct except for the simple fact that the Government agreed in 2019 to exclude end-of-life meters from the so called consumer approval ‘rules’.  Suppliers continue to ask BEIS to make smart meters mandatory as is the case in most countries. To date, BEIS has declined this request as there are waiting lists to fit smart meters.

There was a simple straightforward and pragmatic reason for this change of approval policy . Many of the smaller suppliers delayed the rollout of smart meters until SMETS2 meters became available. These suppliers have never had access to standard analogue meters but they are still responsible - in Law under The Gas and Electricity Acts - for exchanging end-of-life meters.

What is needed here is for the OP’s trusted friend to tell her neighbour that the meter has to be changed and it is better to manage the process and work with the supplier. If the supplier has access to a standard meter, and it agrees to fit one, then the neighbour needs to be apprised that there may be a charge for this meter change.

Threats of Court Orders and the Police marching in are overblown. Suppliers will use all means of encouragement before they resort to using the legal powers that they have at their disposal.

Finally, there is of course the option for energy consumers to buy and fit their own metering equipment. This requires supplier approval and the person fitting the meter must be qualified to do so. The supplier will continue to levy a standing charge.

MWT

CanNeverThinkOfAUsername said:

.... If someone truly does not want a smart meter they can have it installed in "Dumb Mode", so it does not connect to the supplier/DCC, and you would just take manual readings.

I think the ship has sailed on that one, the smart meter cannot be fully commissioned without the DCC connection and the supplier is permitted to take readings from the meter once a month even if the customer refuses to give them any more frequent data access.

The ability for the customer to refuse more frequent data access is also being reduced over time as the settlement mechanisms used at the wholesale level are shifting towards half-hour data being required...

[Deleted User]

Dolor said:

The point is, Citizens Advice know what the rules are and they are telling people they DON'T need to accept a change to a smart meter and if energy companies are trying to force them they should contact CA for advice.

CA is 100% correct except for the simple fact that the Government agreed in 2019 to exclude end-of-life meters from the so called consumer approval ‘rules’.  Suppliers continue to ask BEIS to make smart meters mandatory as is the case in most countries. To date, BEIS has declined this request as there are waiting lists to fit smart meters.

There was a simple straightforward and pragmatic reason for this change of approval policy . Many of the smaller suppliers delayed the rollout of smart meters until SMETS2 meters became available. These suppliers have never had access to standard analogue meters but they are still responsible - in Law under The Gas and Electricity Acts - for exchanging end-of-life meters.

What is needed here is for the OP’s trusted friend to tell her neighbour that the meter has to be changed and it is better to manage the process and work with the supplier. If the supplier has access to a standard meter, and it agrees to fit one, then the neighbour needs to be apprised that there may be a charge for this meter change.

Threats of Court Orders and the Police marching in are overblown. Suppliers will use all means of encouragement before they resort to using the legal powers that they have at their disposal.

Finally, there is of course the option for energy consumers to buy and fit their own metering equipment. This requires supplier approval and the person fitting the meter must be qualified to do so. The supplier will continue to levy a standing charge.

IF the energy company can legally FORCE someone to have a smart meter installed against their will then the onus is on them to prove to her that they have the legal right.

CA say categorically that you should contact them if the energy companies try to force you to have one. 

Which say that the energy company MUST provide evidence if they are claiming that the old meter needs to be changed.

The weak and vulnerable should NOT be thrown under a bus. A lot of people categorically do not want smart meters in their property. The battle is a long, long, long way from over. If the lady wants to keep fighting (OP says she does) then either ignore the letters or contact CA. 

In a free market someone will be able to offer an alternative solution to those that are adamant that they won't have a smart meter. It isn't yet established for certain that we no longer have a free market. Sit tight. The battle hasn't even started. 

[Deleted User]

Deleted_User said:

Dolor said:

The point is, Citizens Advice know what the rules are and they are telling people they DON'T need to accept a change to a smart meter and if energy companies are trying to force them they should contact CA for advice.

CA is 100% correct except for the simple fact that the Government agreed in 2019 to exclude end-of-life meters from the so called consumer approval ‘rules’.  Suppliers continue to ask BEIS to make smart meters mandatory as is the case in most countries. To date, BEIS has declined this request as there are waiting lists to fit smart meters.

There was a simple straightforward and pragmatic reason for this change of approval policy . Many of the smaller suppliers delayed the rollout of smart meters until SMETS2 meters became available. These suppliers have never had access to standard analogue meters but they are still responsible - in Law under The Gas and Electricity Acts - for exchanging end-of-life meters.

What is needed here is for the OP’s trusted friend to tell her neighbour that the meter has to be changed and it is better to manage the process and work with the supplier. If the supplier has access to a standard meter, and it agrees to fit one, then the neighbour needs to be apprised that there may be a charge for this meter change.

Threats of Court Orders and the Police marching in are overblown. Suppliers will use all means of encouragement before they resort to using the legal powers that they have at their disposal.

Finally, there is of course the option for energy consumers to buy and fit their own metering equipment. This requires supplier approval and the person fitting the meter must be qualified to do so. The supplier will continue to levy a standing charge.

IF the energy company can legally FORCE someone to have a smart meter installed against their will then the onus is on them to prove to her that they have the legal right.

CA say categorically that you should contact them if the energy companies try to force you to have one. 

Which say that the energy company MUST provide evidence if they are claiming that the old meter needs to be changed.

The weak and vulnerable should NOT be thrown under a bus. A lot of people categorically do not want smart meters in their property. The battle is a long, long, long way from over. If the lady wants to keep fighting (OP says she does) then either ignore the letters or contact CA. 

In a free market someone will be able to offer an alternative solution to those that are adamant that they won't have a smart meter. It isn't yet established for certain that we no longer have a free market. Sit tight. The battle hasn't even started. 

This is getting silly. You are clearly in the anti-smart meter camp and looking for evidence to support your case. If it was ever to come to a Warrant of Entry then I would expect the Court to satisfy itself that the supplier is meeting all its obligations under the Law. Given that all meters have a certificated life then, arguably, the rollout of smart meters will just happen over time.

[Deleted User]

Why is it silly?

Of course I'm in the anti-smart meter camp - I don't think I could have expressed that more clearly!!

As I have said repeatedly - it's not anywhere near the point of a Warrant of Entry - those saying otherwise are being silly.

Which? advises people that the energy company MUST provide evidence if they want to replace your meter on 'end of life' grounds. They have not yet done that. CA advise people to contact them if the energy companies put pressure on them.

Just because and energy company (with a vested interest on getting people onto smart meters) and random people on a forum say the energy company have a legal right doesn't make it so. The logical, sensible next step is to throw it back to the energy company (or just sit tight and wait) - the onus is on them to PROVE that they have a legal right.

If it's proven they have a legal right (and that won't happen for quite some time - there will be all sorts of court cases and challenges) people that refuse point blank to have smart meters will need to consider their options. For example, if people would rather go off grid than have a smart meter one option would be for the energy company to decommission their faulty equipment and leave it at that.

**IF** we still have free markets someone will offer an alternative solution for those of us that consider rejecting smart meters to be the hill we'll die on. 

But the ball is in the courts of the energy companies. They need to PROVE that they have a legal right to change the meter. If this lady wants someone to take this on for her she can contact CA. But personally, I'll just sit tight until I see the evidence that they have a legal right to replace my meter. At that point I'll consider my options.

The smart meters will come to end of life before a lot of our standard meters. When 5G rolls out many of them will need to be replaced. Billions more added to energy bills to pay for it. They didn't think this through.....like most things. The more they inflate costs with this mad plan the more appealing going off-grid becomes. Perhaps the way forwards for many of us will be technology that improves off-grid capabilities. 

Astria

Deleted_User said:

The smart meters will come to end of life before a lot of our standard meters. When 5G rolls out many of them will need to be replaced.

S1 meters are being replaced anyway, 5G is already here and they still work and will do until 2033. 4g/5g Smart meters already exist, and S2 meters will be unaffected by the 2G/3G shutdown because they don't use it. Chances are all S1 meters will be replaced well before 2033.

You can still object to a smart meter installation if you current meter is within it's certification lifetime, but we already know that objecting will cost you significant cost in the future as "anytime" tariffs will be the most expensive.