Filmed by cyclist touching a device

Car_54

DanDare999 said:

facade said:

DanDare999 said:

user1977 said:

DanDare999 said:

user1977 said:

sheramber said:

if the phone isn't being held but  is in a cradle  on the dash, is using it to send a text while driving okay?

You are not holding it so it must be, from what is being said.

It wouldn't be an offence under those regulations - it's the same as fiddling with anything else on your dashboard - so still potentially careless driving.

So if you maintained your position on the road, between the lines, not gaining or losing distance on the car ahead it's ok?

I don't think careless driving necessarily requires the driver to have swerved etc, could still be charged just because they're e.g. taking their eyes off the road for an excessive period.

No, it requires their driving to be below the standard of a competent driver. You're saying as long as you drive to that standard you can text with a phone on the dash. 

An imaginary competent driver* would not take their eyes off the road for that length of time, so it is still careless.

How the Police would know is another matter. If you didn't notice them (or another car with dashcam) following you closely enough to film it, alongside you, or at the roadside filming then clearly the inattention caused by texting is careless

*Magistrates do not live in the Real World. Their idea of what a competent driver would do and mine (and probably yours) differ somewhat.

A momentary glance down is no worse than looking at the speedo or retuning a radio so it's not careless. 

In a well-publicised case about 20 years ago, a driver caused a fatal accident while searching in a pocket for his Polo mints. He had been caught on film, and had taken his eyes off the road for less then 2 seconds (1.96 from memory).

He was convicted of causing death by dangerous driving, and jailed. At appeal, his legal team made your point about the radio or speedo -  it was rejected by the Appeal Court, and the verdict and sentence upheld.

Note that his action was held to be dangerous, which is a higher barrier than careless.

user1977

billy2shots said:

There is obviously clear distinction between devices rather than just how you hold them. It's why Top Gear can get away with driving on the road communicating with walkie-talkie radios and not phones. 

I'm sure BBC would have done their homework and checked with the legal department. 

Yes, two-way radios are specifically exempted from the regulations we've been discussing.

Or more precisely:

"any wireless telegraphy apparatus which is designed or adapted—

(i) for the purpose of transmitting and receiving spoken messages; and

(ii) to operate on any frequency other than 880 MHz to 915 MHz, 925 MHz to 960 MHz, 1710 MHz to 1785 MHz, 1805 MHz to 1880 MHz, 1900 MHz to 1980 MHz or 2110 MHz to 2170 MHz"

Car_54

billy2shots said:

There is obviously clear distinction between devices rather than just how you hold them. It's why Top Gear can get away with driving on the road communicating with walkie-talkie radios and not phones. 

I'm sure BBC would have done their homework and checked with the legal department. 

You're confusing real life with fiction ....

DanDare999

Car_54 said:

DanDare999 said:

facade said:

DanDare999 said:

user1977 said:

DanDare999 said:

user1977 said:

sheramber said:

if the phone isn't being held but  is in a cradle  on the dash, is using it to send a text while driving okay?

You are not holding it so it must be, from what is being said.

It wouldn't be an offence under those regulations - it's the same as fiddling with anything else on your dashboard - so still potentially careless driving.

So if you maintained your position on the road, between the lines, not gaining or losing distance on the car ahead it's ok?

I don't think careless driving necessarily requires the driver to have swerved etc, could still be charged just because they're e.g. taking their eyes off the road for an excessive period.

No, it requires their driving to be below the standard of a competent driver. You're saying as long as you drive to that standard you can text with a phone on the dash. 

An imaginary competent driver* would not take their eyes off the road for that length of time, so it is still careless.

How the Police would know is another matter. If you didn't notice them (or another car with dashcam) following you closely enough to film it, alongside you, or at the roadside filming then clearly the inattention caused by texting is careless

*Magistrates do not live in the Real World. Their idea of what a competent driver would do and mine (and probably yours) differ somewhat.

A momentary glance down is no worse than looking at the speedo or retuning a radio so it's not careless. 

In a well-publicised case about 20 years ago, a driver caused a fatal accident while searching in a pocket for his Polo mints. He had been caught on film, and had taken his eyes off the road for less then 2 seconds (1.96 from memory).

He was convicted of causing death by dangerous driving, and jailed. At appeal, his legal team made your point about the radio or speedo -  it was rejected by the Appeal Court, and the verdict and sentence upheld.

Note that his action was held to be dangerous, which is a higher barrier than careless.

He crashed did he not? So clearly fell below the standard of a competent driver by that act alone. No doubt it was the aggravating factor that put it far below. 

facade

DanDare999 said:

facade said:

DanDare999 said:

user1977 said:

DanDare999 said:

user1977 said:

sheramber said:

if the phone isn't being held but  is in a cradle  on the dash, is using it to send a text while driving okay?

You are not holding it so it must be, from what is being said.

It wouldn't be an offence under those regulations - it's the same as fiddling with anything else on your dashboard - so still potentially careless driving.

So if you maintained your position on the road, between the lines, not gaining or losing distance on the car ahead it's ok?

I don't think careless driving necessarily requires the driver to have swerved etc, could still be charged just because they're e.g. taking their eyes off the road for an excessive period.

No, it requires their driving to be below the standard of a competent driver. You're saying as long as you drive to that standard you can text with a phone on the dash. 

An imaginary competent driver* would not take their eyes off the road for that length of time, so it is still careless.

How the Police would know is another matter. If you didn't notice them (or another car with dashcam) following you closely enough to film it, alongside you, or at the roadside filming then clearly the inattention caused by texting is careless

*Magistrates do not live in the Real World. Their idea of what a competent driver would do and mine (and probably yours) differ somewhat.

A momentary glance down is no worse than looking at the speedo or retuning a radio so it's not careless. 

I must be doing this "texting" wrong, because I can't do it with a mometary glance.

DanDare999

facade said:

DanDare999 said:

facade said:

DanDare999 said:

user1977 said:

DanDare999 said:

user1977 said:

sheramber said:

if the phone isn't being held but  is in a cradle  on the dash, is using it to send a text while driving okay?

You are not holding it so it must be, from what is being said.

It wouldn't be an offence under those regulations - it's the same as fiddling with anything else on your dashboard - so still potentially careless driving.

So if you maintained your position on the road, between the lines, not gaining or losing distance on the car ahead it's ok?

I don't think careless driving necessarily requires the driver to have swerved etc, could still be charged just because they're e.g. taking their eyes off the road for an excessive period.

No, it requires their driving to be below the standard of a competent driver. You're saying as long as you drive to that standard you can text with a phone on the dash. 

An imaginary competent driver* would not take their eyes off the road for that length of time, so it is still careless.

How the Police would know is another matter. If you didn't notice them (or another car with dashcam) following you closely enough to film it, alongside you, or at the roadside filming then clearly the inattention caused by texting is careless

*Magistrates do not live in the Real World. Their idea of what a competent driver would do and mine (and probably yours) differ somewhat.

A momentary glance down is no worse than looking at the speedo or retuning a radio so it's not careless. 

I must be doing this "texting" wrong, because I can't do it with a mometary glance.

You must be, maybe it's an age thing.  😉

Petriix

facade said:

DanDare999 said:

facade said:

DanDare999 said:

user1977 said:

DanDare999 said:

user1977 said:

sheramber said:

if the phone isn't being held but  is in a cradle  on the dash, is using it to send a text while driving okay?

You are not holding it so it must be, from what is being said.

It wouldn't be an offence under those regulations - it's the same as fiddling with anything else on your dashboard - so still potentially careless driving.

So if you maintained your position on the road, between the lines, not gaining or losing distance on the car ahead it's ok?

I don't think careless driving necessarily requires the driver to have swerved etc, could still be charged just because they're e.g. taking their eyes off the road for an excessive period.

No, it requires their driving to be below the standard of a competent driver. You're saying as long as you drive to that standard you can text with a phone on the dash. 

An imaginary competent driver* would not take their eyes off the road for that length of time, so it is still careless.

How the Police would know is another matter. If you didn't notice them (or another car with dashcam) following you closely enough to film it, alongside you, or at the roadside filming then clearly the inattention caused by texting is careless

*Magistrates do not live in the Real World. Their idea of what a competent driver would do and mine (and probably yours) differ somewhat.

A momentary glance down is no worse than looking at the speedo or retuning a radio so it's not careless. 

I must be doing this "texting" wrong, because I can't do it with a mometary glance.

I regularly have momentary interactions with my phone while driving; almost all of which can be done without even looking at it. I know where the required icons are and can tap them while watching the road.

Sending a text is as simple as tapping on the right message then holding down the speak-to-type button then speaking your message before hitting send. This might be required if someone has a name which confuses the speach recognition. 

It's not really any different to interacting with the navigation on the car's main screen, perhaps to zoom to the next junction or the route overview. A single tap, a glance, another tap. 

All of this is perfectly legal. Many drivers need to do this as part of their job.

If you're trying to type a full message then you're almost certainly 'distracted' but there are many functions you can do with minimal input.

There is no ambiguity in the legislation. It's fine to touch your phone if it's mounted to the car. 

Ibrahim5

Gosh it's really good that a hospital doctor is taking the time to do this good work. I guess it's lifesaving work, the same as if you managed to persuade someone to stop smoking or performing lifesaving surgery. I remember an ambulanceman telling me that if they had been to a fatal collision they still had to take the dead body to the hospital for the doctor to confirm death. Sometimes they had been decapitated so it seemed a bit silly but it still had to be done. Doctors will see the deaths and serious injuries that distracted motorists cause so will want to do everything they can to reduce them.

silverwhistle

facade said:

How the Police would know is another matter. If you didn't notice them (or another car with dashcam) following you closely enough to film it, alongside you, or at the roadside filming then clearly the inattention caused by texting is careless

The police receive plenty of videos they don't action so the fact that they have in this case must mean the evidence is strong enough for them to proceed.

As a policeman once told me, in a social context, he booked a motorcyclist who'd been speeding but not for that in itself but: "because you didn't see me"..

BikingBud

silverwhistle said:

facade said:

How the Police would know is another matter. If you didn't notice them (or another car with dashcam) following you closely enough to film it, alongside you, or at the roadside filming then clearly the inattention caused by texting is careless

The police receive plenty of videos they don't action so the fact that they have in this case must mean the evidence is strong enough for them to proceed.

As a policeman once told me, in a social context, he booked a motorcyclist who'd been speeding but not for that in itself but: "because you didn't see me"..

Yup

Difficult to argue that you were making safe progress when you hadn't observed and reacted to a threat to your licence.