Do I have a case against Wowcher?

Pagala

Hi all

Got an issue with the online seller "Wowcher".

Long story short:

Family member suggested a holiday advertised in a Wowcher spam email.
I read the description and saw the quoted price. I liked the price.
It was advertised as being offered by a company called, let's say, "X". It stated the holiday was ATOL-protected, and that's why I felt OK buying it.
Wowcher's website offered me the holiday for sale, and priced up what it called "Wowcher credits" to the value of the quoted price.
I paid in full, online, using a debit card. 
I "redeemed" the "credits" to get the holiday.
Next day, I was contacted by an outfit claiming that they were the holiday company. They said their company was called "Y" (not the same as advertised). They asked for booking details (who was travelling, what baggage I wanted to book, etc.)
I was a bit spooked, and said I would get back to them. 
I received an email from them as well. This confirmed the company name as "Y". Again confused, I looked back again at the Wowcher ad. I saw I'd been sold a holiday provided by company "X", not "Y".
The Wowcher ad provided an ATOL number. I went to the ATOL website and looked up the number. The ATOL site said that this ATOL number had been given to a company called "Y". 
I looked up Companies House, and found that the company "Y" had been dissolved in 2016.
I looked up company "Y", and found a whole lot of really bad reviews by people who said they'd been scammed.
I got a call from company "Y" (which I regarded, by now, as a bunch of fraudsters) who again asked for info, and made it clear I wanted no dealings with them and wanted my money back. They said no.

All of the above happened FAST. So the very next day after "buying Wowcher credits" I went back to Wowcher for my refund, as per my cooling-off cancellation rights, and misrepresentation of goods and services, and consumer rights i.e. unfit for purpose (Wowcher credits not as described because they weren't capable of buying me the advertised goods or services). I did this by Resolver, because Wowcher has no email address. 
Wowcher acknowledged my email and a few days later basically said "no".
About a month of back-and-forth, I sent several messages asking them their reasoning and explaining mine. They responded but didn't explain anything. Just "no refund after vouchers redeemed". In other words, ignoring my questions.

As of late (about a month has passed now) they simply ignore my questions. However, bizarrely, my Wowcher account page updated 2 weeks ago to say my credits had been "refunded". I did actually wait for the funds to appear, but they never did. Now, it's just stone cold silence from them. I just sent them a message saying I intend to take them to the small claims court (I do, if I have a good case, because it's a lot of money).

Just to note: I wasted no time trying a chargeback via my bank (Resolver). Yesterday, Revolut refused the chargeback, saying Wowcher had provided "evidence" for why a chargeback shouldn't provided. And that's it.

What are your thoughts? Do I have a case against Wowcher?

Thanks in advance

DullGreyGuy

This is the problem with coupon sites... they are promising you a coupon, you got a coupon. Their liability for what that coupon then gets you is tenuous and it adds a middleman that breaks any S75 type claim.

Without knowing who X and Y are the rest is a bit difficult... if "X" was say Virgin Holidays then they operate as both a travel agent and a tour operator and its very possible that random small travel agency "Y" can sell a "Virgin Holiday" holiday. Therefore if the voucher was for a X as a tour operator the use of Y as the travel agent isnt necessarily a breach of what you bought but more a misunderstanding of if X was the agent or operator.

born_again

Chargeback will have been rejected as you bought "Credits" & they were supplied.
Small claims. No, on the same basis as above. They supplied what you bought.

Never heard of wowcher credits other than when they refund you. It's normally you buy a voucher to redeem at a 3rd party site.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6395310/refund-from-wowcher#latest

Pagala

The advert was presented, described, promoted and priced by Wowcher, on their site.

The advert stated a company called "X" would supply the holiday. The advert also stated it was ATOL-protected.

The 3rd party (the holiday provider) did not have any sort of website. Only Wowcher had a website.

How is this different from buying a "coupon" which can be used to buy a teacup, and then, after paying for the coupon being contacted by a "teacup provider" who says you're getting a coffee mug?

Bradden

Pagala said:

T.

How is this different from buying a "coupon" which can be used to buy a teacup, and then, after paying for the coupon being contacted by a "teacup provider" who says you're getting a coffee mug?

It's not really different.. the issue is that the coupon supplier did fulfil their part in supplying a voucher so it makes it difficult to enforce consumer rights. There are regular posts on this forum about coupon/vouchers and the issues around them.

Pagala

Bradden said:

It's not really different.. the issue is that the coupon supplier did fulfil their part in supplying a voucher so it makes it difficult to enforce consumer rights. There are regular posts on this forum about coupon/vouchers and the issues around them.

If the coupon supplier (Wowcher) is the promoter, and states on their own website that the coupon can be used to buy an ATOL-protected holiday (I've taken a screenshot), but when you buy the coupon and try to use it you find that it doesn't, then surely the coupon seller is liable for misrepresentation, or goods not fit for purpose? Because what they sold me (the coupons) weren't capable of buying me the holiday that they claimed they would. That's my line of thinking.

For example, let's say I offer up Pagala vouchers for sale on my website, saying on my Pagala website that if you enter in a specific product code, plus pay me £1000, I will give you a hypothetical Pagala voucher which you can swap for a new BMW car from a BMW showroom, and you go ahead and pay me the money and type in the product code. Then you get a call from Johnny's Autos (not a BMW showroom) down the road, who says your new BMW is on its way, except it's 10 years old and has 150000 miles on the clock, but like it or lump it, that's what you're getting. Now, you have no contractual relationship with Johnny's Autos, but you were definitely missold the coupons, by me.

Aylesbury_Duck

You may have a case, but I suspect the devil is in the detail.  As others have said, you paid for voucher credits and received voucher credits, so on a simplistic basis, no refund is due.  However, in my opinion, it's precisely what you first bought that counts.

A. If the transaction involved you buying general wowcher credit that could be redeemed to buy the holiday, I don't think you have legitimate grounds for a refund to your debit card because the credit can be used to buy other things.

B. If the transaction was you buying wowcher credit specifically and exclusively for holiday X, then I think you do have grounds to demand a refund to your debit card, because the credit is useless.

From this section of your OP...

Pagala said:

Wowcher's website offered me the holiday for sale, and priced up what it called "Wowcher credits" to the value of the quoted price.
I paid in full, online, using a debit card. 
I "redeemed" the "credits" to get the holiday.

...it looks like scenario A is what happened.  There is a subtle but important difference between the two options and how they were advertised.

Pagala

Aylesbury_Duck said:

You may have a case, but I suspect the devil is in the detail.  As others have said, you paid for voucher credits and received voucher credits, so on a simplistic basis, no refund is due.  However, in my opinion, it's precisely what you first bought that counts.

A. If the transaction involved you buying general wowcher credit that could be redeemed to buy the holiday, I don't think you have legitimate grounds for a refund to your debit card because the credit can be used to buy other things.

B. If the transaction was you buying wowcher credit specifically and exclusively for holiday X, then I think you do have grounds to demand a refund to your debit card, because the credit is useless.

From this section of your OP...

Pagala said:

Wowcher's website offered me the holiday for sale, and priced up what it called "Wowcher credits" to the value of the quoted price.
I paid in full, online, using a debit card. 
I "redeemed" the "credits" to get the holiday.

...it looks like scenario A is what happened.  There is a subtle but important difference between the two options and how they were advertised.

OK, but it looks to me more like it's scenario A in theory (based on the general T&C small print stating that you can use the coupon to buy other things in theory), but in practice it's more like scenario B, because you can only ever buy "general" Wowcher coupons, and the coupons I bought were priced up (by the Wowcher website) to the exact value of the holiday. In other words, they provide web page with advert saying "buy this holiday for £n", then when you click "buy" it takes you to a payment page where they sell you coupons priced up to that exact sum. You pay your money but you don't get the holiday. You get "coupons". Seems like a deceit designed to evade consumer rights law.

You pay some money to buy a thing. That thing has been advertised by a voucher seller as an instrument capable of buying, say, Darjeeling tea, if it's redeemed. When you buy the voucher and try to use it to get your Darjeeling tea, you get PG Tips. You go back to the voucher seller and say, this voucher was no good - give me my money back. The voucher seller holds up their hands and says "Get lost! Look at our T&C - no refunds once you've used up your voucher, and that voucher wasn't defective, because that voucher might also have been used to buy a dinner for 2, or a hifi system, or a parasol! Our vouchers can be used for so many things that it doesn't matter if our product descriptions on our website are inaccurate or have misrepresentations in them."

I don't see how they could get away with that argument. I wonder if they would.

Aylesbury_Duck

Pagala said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

You may have a case, but I suspect the devil is in the detail.  As others have said, you paid for voucher credits and received voucher credits, so on a simplistic basis, no refund is due.  However, in my opinion, it's precisely what you first bought that counts.

A. If the transaction involved you buying general wowcher credit that could be redeemed to buy the holiday, I don't think you have legitimate grounds for a refund to your debit card because the credit can be used to buy other things.

B. If the transaction was you buying wowcher credit specifically and exclusively for holiday X, then I think you do have grounds to demand a refund to your debit card, because the credit is useless.

From this section of your OP...

Pagala said:

Wowcher's website offered me the holiday for sale, and priced up what it called "Wowcher credits" to the value of the quoted price.
I paid in full, online, using a debit card. 
I "redeemed" the "credits" to get the holiday.

...it looks like scenario A is what happened.  There is a subtle but important difference between the two options and how they were advertised.

OK, but it looks to me more like it's scenario A in theory (based on the general T&C small print stating that you can use the coupon to buy other things in theory), but in practice it's more like scenario B, because you can only ever buy "general" Wowcher coupons, and the coupons I bought were priced up (by the Wowcher website) to the exact value of the holiday. In other words, they provide web page with advert saying "buy this holiday for £n", then when you click "buy" it takes you to a payment page where they sell you coupons priced up to that exact sum. You pay your money but you don't get the holiday. You get "coupons". Seems like a deceit designed to evade consumer rights law.

You pay some money to buy a thing. That thing has been advertised by a voucher seller as an instrument capable of buying, say, Darjeeling tea, if it's redeemed. When you buy the voucher and try to use it to get your Darjeeling tea, you get PG Tips. You go back to the voucher seller and say, this voucher was no good - give me my money back. The voucher seller holds up their hands and says "Get lost! Look at our T&C - no refunds once you've used up your voucher, and that voucher wasn't defective, because that voucher might also have been used to buy a dinner for 2, or a hifi system, or a parasol! Our vouchers can be used for so many things that it doesn't matter if our product descriptions on our website are inaccurate or have misrepresentations in them."

I don't see how they could get away with that argument. I wonder if they would.

That's why I lean towards you having no right to a refund.  

"You pay your money but you don't get the holiday" doesn't strictly apply because you pay your money for the vouchers with which you should be able to buy the holiday.  Those vouchers aren't solely and exclusively valid for holiday X.

For me, it all hinges on the Ts and Cs around your voucher purpose.  If those vouchers were clearly advertised as general vouchers with which you could purchase anything on the site, then you got what you paid for.  There's a break in the chain as a result of the voucher system.

I think it's sharp practice but not unlawful, but then that's the known problem with voucher systems like this.  They introduce a break in the normal purchase process and in doing so, can undermine your consumer rights compared to those you'd have if you paid for the item directly.

k3lvc

So discounting whether you were dealing with company X or company Y could you theoretically have bought the holiday or did you not progress because you were uncomfortable with who you were dealing with ?

Pagala

k3lvc said:

So discounting whether you were dealing with company X or company Y could you theoretically have bought the holiday or did you not progress because you were uncomfortable with who you were dealing with ?

It's quite simple: Wowcher advertised a holiday for sale through its website.
It looked good, and was supposed to be ATOL-protected.
The advert was false because Wowcher said it was offered by a company called "X".
The advert was also false because Wowcher said it was ATOL-protected, when it was not. There was no way to research this before actually buying the Wowcher coupons. You simply had to take the Wowcher claim on good (misplaced) faith.

The people who got in touch with me claiming to be the travel agents could have been absolutely anyone. The "company name" they were using was fake. That company name they were using was one that had gone out of business in 2016. The reason they were using this company name is because, before it went out of business, that company was an actual company and it had an actual ATOL licence. The people who got in touch with me sounded like "Microsoft" scammers, and their behaviour and actions weren't much different. I looked them up and there are lots of people who say they were scammed by them. Make sense?