Best way to deal with this in paypal resolution centre please?

wannahouse

I bought an item of antique furniture from FB marketplace.
I paid via paypal and added extra money to cover the fees so the seller wouldn't be out of pocket.
I booked a pickup from a courier on shiply who was to pick up on the Monday, but they were disorganised and got all the details wrong and didnt show up.
I notified the man that they weren't coming and they had been banned from the Shiply site, so I was arranging a different company to pick up the item, and some did as few days later.
After they picked it up, the seller messaged me to say it had been picked up and that the drawer wouldnt go into the furniture anymore as it had swollen due to moisture, but not to worry, give it a few days and it will dry out!
Turns out he dumped the antique cabinet outside in the stormy weather on the monday and just left it outside all week until it was collected!
This was a £250 item btw!
When it turned up, I was so upset as its wrecked!
All the veneer has swollen up and is bumpy and is splitting as its drying on the doors and a whole strip of trim just fell off it at the front.
The drawer has not just been exposure to moisture - it is completely water stained and the inside of the drawer all the veneer has raised up and is riply.
its wrecked.
I am now out of pocket £325 for a junk piece of furniture, incl the £75 courier fee.
I messaged the man politely and showed him pics of its condition and he said he feels bad about it and we can come to a solution, and he offered £100 back.
I said I feel that is unfair, as he was careless with the item AND he failed to notify me of the damage, giving me a chance to cancel the courier and get a refund and just sent it off to me after ruining it with no chance to refuse it, and in the condition its in, it is worthless as its just a junk piece of damaged furniture now, not a pristine antique.
He said bad luck then, not his fault and he can't do anything further.

I should not be out of pocket hundreds of pounds, because he negligently put the furniture outside for days in wet weather.
Fortunately i did pay as a purchase on paypal so can raise a dispute.
However i am not sure what option to choose to complain, as if i pick "damaged and defective item" i think i may only get a refund if i return it.
That will cost me a further £75 to send back via the courier, leaving me with nothing and £150 out of pocket for shipping fees, which is not fair.
Should I ask for a partial refund instead?
I paid £258 on paypal incl extra for the fees.
If i ask for a £208 refund, then i wont have to return it, and £50 is more than a generous amount  to leave him with the cabinet in the condition it is. 
i would not have bought it like this for £50, and it is still not of use to me, but its cheaper to pay £50 for the cabinet that the return courier fee?
I have photographs to prove the damage, plus messages where he's told me he left it outside and it got water damaged, and that he feels bad about it, so i can prove that.

km1500

on ebay, snad requires the seller to pay return costs. Is it different on paypal ?

soolin

km1500 said:

on ebay, snad requires the seller to pay return costs. Is it different on paypal ?

Yes it is , PayPal have never had the ability to charge a seller for returns. they do a return on us system if you sign up for it before you open a claim but that has a limit of £15 for postage. 

Even on ebay if this was a collected item then seller would not necessarily have been expected to pay for return , and obviously buyer would never get the original courier cost back either.

Sales get very complicated when item is sold as collection only (which I have assumed is the case here) as it is deemed as acceptable once it is collected, a courier arranged by a buyer being their agent in the matter, ideally, courier should have contacted buyer to explain the poor condition and allowed buyer to refuse it. Seller could then have refunded in full but buyer would only have been out of pocket for the original courier. This is also potentially complicated by the possibility that this was a private sale , so if a PayPal SNAD does not succeed then small claims might also be limited as once again buyer accepted it once their agent picked it up- but that could go either way. 

Collection only items and couriers can be problematic and are best avoided.

pinkshoes

FB market place - I'm assuming you therefore bought from a private seller?

So you paid £250 item cost, £8 PayPal fees, £75 courier. £333 TOTAL.

I'm assuming the seller put the item outside on the Monday on the agreed collection date which your courier failed to show up for.

When you got a new courier, did you give a specific collection date?

The seller was negligent in leaving it outside, but by sending a clearly damaged item with a courier was ridiculous.

I would not be particularly nice with this seller. 

I would write the seller a LETTER BEFORE ACTION asking for either £200 (how much will it cost to restore??) back and you keep the item, or a full refund of £333 and he sends a courier to collect the item.

I would then state that he has 14 days to respond, and if you don't hear from him you will take the matter to court for a full refund where you will add court fees on to the amount owed. 

soolin

pinkshoes said:

FB market place - I'm assuming you therefore bought from a private seller?

So you paid £250 item cost, £8 PayPal fees, £75 courier. £333 TOTAL.

I'm assuming the seller put the item outside on the Monday on the agreed collection date which your courier failed to show up for.

When you got a new courier, did you give a specific collection date?

The seller was negligent in leaving it outside, but by sending a clearly damaged item with a courier was ridiculous.

I would not be particularly nice with this seller. 

I would write the seller a LETTER BEFORE ACTION asking for either £200 (how much will it cost to restore??) back and you keep the item, or a full refund of £333 and he sends a courier to collect the item.

I would then state that he has 14 days to respond, and if you don't hear from him you will take the matter to court for a full refund where you will add court fees on to the amount owed. 

I can't see how seller can be forced to send a courier to arrange an item that was accepted and collected by a representative of the buyer.

Personally I would take a more gentle approach at first and not just go in and potentially lose everything, try negotiating a better discount, or try a SNAD claim via paypal (and accept costs of returning). Only if all that fails take a harder approach, but going to small claims could end up costing buyer more with costs etc. There is also the possibility that the original failure to collect may have been notified late (and we haven't had that mentioned) which could mean buyer could be deemed at least part to blame .

I don't think this is necessarily a guaranteed win for the OP at small claims, especially as they are still in possession of the item , and I would be reluctant to advise spending even more money before at least trying for a goodwill solution.

km1500

the seller is presumably claiming they were told the item would be collected on a certain day and put it out for collection as agreed.

they are also presumably saying that what happens after then is not their problem, as at this stage the item legally belongs to the buyer and has done ever since the contract was made. They certainly do not have a further 'duty of care' for the item

wannahouse

pinkshoes said:

FB market place - I'm assuming you therefore bought from a private seller?

So you paid £250 item cost, £8 PayPal fees, £75 courier. £333 TOTAL.

I'm assuming the seller put the item outside on the Monday on the agreed collection date which your courier failed to show up for.

When you got a new courier, did you give a specific collection date?

The seller was negligent in leaving it outside, but by sending a clearly damaged item with a courier was ridiculous.

I would not be particularly nice with this seller. 

I would write the seller a LETTER BEFORE ACTION asking for either £200 (how much will it cost to restore??) back and you keep the item, or a full refund of £333 and he sends a courier to collect the item.

I would then state that he has 14 days to respond, and if you don't hear from him you will take the matter to court for a full refund where you will add court fees on to the amount owed. 

ideally, courier should have contacted buyer to explain the poor condition and allowed buyer to refuse it. Seller could then have refunded in full 

The courier only knew to pick the item up.
They don't know what condition it was described as and sold in.
If I sold a chandelier in perfect condition, and then dropped and smashed it before a buyers courier collected, then it is completely wrong just to hand that item over to be shipped without informing the person, who's only knowledge of it at that point was it was a perfect chandelier.
It's not as if its something the seller didn't notice.
he deliberately chucked it outside in stormy weather and KNEW it was damaged and waited until it was gone before he decided to inform me and i have screenshots of him admitting that.
He put the item outside on sunday night actually.
He didn't need to put anything outside.
The item, like any item should stay safe inside until a courier comes to collect.
I told him a courier should be coming to pick it up on monday, and they would call him to make arrangements.
They did not call, and then I was notified they were banned from Shiply for infringements, and not to proceed with the delivery, so I notified the seller that the courier would not be coming on Monday and he told me they hadn't contacted him anyway.
I said I would make arrangements for a different company to collect, and they will call him with a date and time.
I have no knowledge he took the item and left it outside on his driveway, unsecured and in the elements.
I had no idea he just lazily left it there ALL WEEK despite there being storms across the UK.
An interior piece of Antique furniture has no business being left outside in the elements and he could have foreseen his actions would damage the item.
His actions DID damage the item, but he didnt care as he now had my money and waited until the courier came and took it before he bothered to let me know it had been damaged, because he put it outside.
Like any seller on any platform, he did have a duty of care to no smash, destroy or deface an item in his care that has now been paid for.
I cannot destroy an item after someone pays for it on ebay and just send it and say bad luck.
He DID NOT dispatch the item in the condition it was sold.
Had the damage occurred AFTER it was out of his hands, then that would be my own bad luck, but the item was damaged by his direct actions and carelessness.
i can't try for a "goodwill option", as the seller just blocked me on facebook so i can't contact them at all.
I was polite , unemotional and factual when i contacted him about the damage.
he acknowledged he caused the damage and said he felt bad about it, but would only offer me a small portion of my money back.
I replied saying that wasn't an equitable solution, and he replied saying "bad luck" and just blocked me.

If he had behaved like a decent person would during a sale, none of this would have happened.
I don't personally know one single person who would treat their own furniture with such disrespect, and he shouldn't have treated mine like that.
Had it have been stolen because he put it outside, it would be cut and dry, because he left it unsecure and did not take due care- the same applies if he took an unreasonable action- putting an antique outside for a week when theres storms, when that was entirely unnecessary. Why he didn't just leave it inside, as you do when a courier comes to collect and carry it out with the courier is beyond me!

soolin

I won't quote the whole post but your analogy is incorrect. The seller is responsible for the item until buyer takes possession, and the courier was your agent and accepted it on your behalf (always a risk when using a courier which is why I advise against them). With your example if you sold a chandelier and left it to be damaged then when the buyer arrived they would refuse it and be able to get their money back, but in your instance your agent accepted it.

If the item had been sent by courier but by the seller they would have remained liable for it until you took possession, so if the van was in an accident on the way and the desk damaged the seller would be liable. If however the courier delivered it safely to you and then you dropped it carrying it through the house then it is your fault. 

However, none of that prevents you from trying a SNAD claim , you paid safely and correctly though paypal for hopefully named goods which are not as described, so a claim is possible. However as you say you would be liable for return costs.

If you do end up opening a  SNAD dispute the seller may well roll over and agree to a partial refund anyway, nothing ventured nothing gained. Does your paypal payment show as having the buyer guarantee , if so you know can go down that route, but your claim will show as a full refund on return of the item . Although I did see mention of a claim recently where the buyer said they were able to request a partial request but seller had the right to refuse and insist on the item being returned- so you might want to follow the SNAD steps carefully and see what pops up.

As usual with MSE you can pick and choose which advice to take , although I would caution against the 'fraudulent' advice earlier as that could well leave you with a lot more serious issues. If you end up going via small claims make sure you start saving screen shots of all correspondence and names of people you spoke to - as you will need all that. 

You said

" I cannot destroy an item after someone pays for it on ebay and just send it and say bad luck.
He DID NOT dispatch the item in the condition it was sold."

Of  course not as buyer would just open an SNAD claim and if you posted it then you would have to pay return costs.

km1500

"If I sold a chandelier in perfect condition, and then dropped and smashed it before a buyers courier collected, then it is completely wrong just to hand that item over to be shipped without informing the person, who's only knowledge of it at that point was it was a perfect chandelier."

 Completely wrong. once you agree to buy an item whether it is a chandelier or a house and the seller accepts and you pay a deposit or the full price the item becomes yours - the seller then has no further responsibility whatsoever

if it gets dropped or left out in the rain it is nothing to do with the seller it is for you to have insurance against damage (in the same way as when you exchange contracts on a house you take out insurance in case the seller burns the house down as it is your property)

 Yes normally of course most sellers look after the property until it is collected and I will argue they did that and you gave Instructions that courier A was going to pick it up and to leave it out for them.

pinkshoes

km1500 said:

the seller is presumably claiming they were told the item would be collected on a certain day and put it out for collection as agreed.

they are also presumably saying that what happens after then is not their problem, as at this stage the item legally belongs to the buyer and has done ever since the contract was made. They certainly do not have a further 'duty of care' for the item

I see what you're saying, but the seller is responsible for the item until handed over to the buyer (in this case the courier contracted by the buyer).

E.g. when you buy something in a shop and collect later, the shop doesn't just chuck the item outside until you can collect. 

I just sold something on FB marketplace. If it got damaged between the buyer paying and me sending it, then I would refund. An item needs to be as described.

The grey area here is the acceptance of the item. The courier would not have known what condition the item should have been in, so collected the item that the OP was expecting. That in the eyes of the law is acceptance of the item. The OP has paid and collected the item despite the damage = acceptance. 

Had the OP turned up to collect themselves, obviously they would have rejected it due to the damage. 

On the other hand, the seller would have known full well the item had been damaged, and they even notified the OP in writing AFTER the courier collected it!! This to me seems rather devious. 

I think the seller knew full well what they were doing.

To save on more courier fees, I would work out the cost of having it restored (get a quote) then ask the seller for this amount as a refund.

soolin

"To save on more courier fees, I would work out the cost of having it restored (get a quote) then ask the seller for this amount as a refund."

I agree that a goodwill settlement might have been the way forward but OP says seller has now blocked them which leaves buyer in a corner trying to work out what claim is best to make. Their only real chance is either paypal SNAD with the acceptance they may well have to pay to return the item, or small claims, which might also leave them out of pocket. Of course either claim might mean seller might well roll over and agree to a better discount.

Buyers arranging their own couriers is a nightmare for all parties and really best avoided by both buyers and sellers.