Best way to deal with this in paypal resolution centre please?

km1500

Thanks @soolin and I do of course agree with you for most of you say

However in this case the buyer asked the seller to leave it outside for courier A which the seller did.

However courier A did not turn up and so now the buyer is asking the seller to do something with the buyer's property i.e. presumably take it back in and wait for courier B or maybe even Courier C which the seller is certainly not obliged to do

Once the seller had left it for the agreed collection of courier A his responsibility is ended and he is certainly not obliged to run around doing things waiting for other couriers

 By the way in your shop example if you bought something in a shop and asked the sales assistant to for example look after it for you while you went shopping and you would collect it later and then something happened to the item it would be your problem not the shop's

Quite a few people who buy things do not seem to understand that once you agree on a sale and payment is made title transfers to the buyer and the seller has no further responsibility in law (eith the obvious caveats for example there has been no misrepresentation etc)

soolin

"Quite a few people who buy things do not seem to understand that once you agree on a sale and payment is made title transfers to the buyer and the seller has no further responsibility in law (eith the obvious caveats for example there has been no misrepresentation etc)"

I agree in principle with some of your points but as I am primarily a seller I believe that sellers legally have a duty of care until buyer takes possession. I've sold a whole load of things today which are to be which have been paid for and which I have to post, I remain responsible for them until buyer or their agent receives and accepts them . If any of these items get lost en route then I will have to refund (obviously I would voluntarily but most safe payment methods would force me to if I didn't) . Just as an example of this I made a sale on Vinted which was sent to a shop on buyers instructions, buyer has not bothered to collect and is now ignoring me so in line with Vinted rules it will be sent back to me and I will have to refund the buyer as they have not accepted it. This is also the reason why I have opted out of the ebay click and drop option as I was selling too many items for delivery to Sainsbury or Argos which were never collected and where I lost the outward postage. 

I have no items being collected today but if they were then I would remain responsible until buyer physically accepts them- that might not mean the person who paid me, it might be a friend or relative or courier, but if they accept the item I consider the sale complete. This is however where it gets tricky as buyer could still try a paypal claim if they paid that way, but I certainly would argue that item was accepted and insist on receiving it back before refunding. AS a seller though I would never accept paypal for a collected item, so this situation would never arise .

If I buy something in a shop I accept it at that point- if I then ask them to put my bag behind the counter or something then it is at my own risk. If however I buy a sofa and ask for it to be delivered then I haven't accepted it until it physically arrives at my door as shop are arranging the delivery.

It's the courier here that is causing the issues - ideally buyer would have collected themselves and refused the item once they saw the damage- and at that point seller would have been obliged to refund as item was not in the state it was sold.

OP is stuck, they will have to try either a paypal SNAD claim or small claims, but both methods will almost certainly require the item to be returned at OP's expense- assuming they even win of course. 

wannahouse

No, I NEVER asked for the item to be placed outside!
There was NEVER any talk about him moving the item anywhere on my behalf.
I told the seller that a courier was supposed to contact him about collecting on the monday.
The courier never contacted him, and in the meantime Shiply emailed to say the courier had been struck off for bad behaviour and not to continue with the service.
I contacted the buyer to tell them about courier A and that i would get courier B to contact him to make arrangements for collection.

There was never any discussion about putting an expensive item of furniture outside at all.
HE told me AFTER it had been collected that it had become water damaged because he chucked it outside on sunday night on the driveway and then left it there all week.
Before this, i had no knowledge the unit was anywhere but inside his house where it should have been.
I didn't ask him to move it, leave it anywhere, or anything.
I just instructed him that a courier would contact him directly with a time and date for THEM to collect.

He obviously just thought "Great, got the money now" and dumped it outside to get it out of the house with no regards for the fact that there were storms and it would get damaged. 

born_again

wannahouse said:

I bought an item of antique furniture from FB marketplace.
I paid via paypal and added extra money to cover the fees so the seller wouldn't be out of pocket.
I booked a pickup from a courier on shiply who was to pick up on the Monday, but they were disorganised and got all the details wrong and didnt show up.
I notified the man that they weren't coming and they had been banned from the Shiply site, so I was arranging a different company to pick up the item, and some did as few days later.
After they picked it up, the seller messaged me to say it had been picked up and that the drawer wouldnt go into the furniture anymore as it had swollen due to moisture, but not to worry, give it a few days and it will dry out!
Turns out he dumped the antique cabinet outside in the stormy weather on the monday and just left it outside all week until it was collected!
This was a £250 item btw!
When it turned up, I was so upset as its wrecked!
All the veneer has swollen up and is bumpy and is splitting as its drying on the doors and a whole strip of trim just fell off it at the front.
The drawer has not just been exposure to moisture - it is completely water stained and the inside of the drawer all the veneer has raised up and is riply.
its wrecked.
I am now out of pocket £325 for a junk piece of furniture, incl the £75 courier fee.
I messaged the man politely and showed him pics of its condition and he said he feels bad about it and we can come to a solution, and he offered £100 back.
I said I feel that is unfair, as he was careless with the item AND he failed to notify me of the damage, giving me a chance to cancel the courier and get a refund and just sent it off to me after ruining it with no chance to refuse it, and in the condition its in, it is worthless as its just a junk piece of damaged furniture now, not a pristine antique.
He said bad luck then, not his fault and he can't do anything further.

I should not be out of pocket hundreds of pounds, because he negligently put the furniture outside for days in wet weather.
Fortunately i did pay as a purchase on paypal so can raise a dispute.
However i am not sure what option to choose to complain, as if i pick "damaged and defective item" i think i may only get a refund if i return it.
That will cost me a further £75 to send back via the courier, leaving me with nothing and £150 out of pocket for shipping fees, which is not fair.
Should I ask for a partial refund instead?
I paid £258 on paypal incl extra for the fees.
If i ask for a £208 refund, then i wont have to return it, and £50 is more than a generous amount  to leave him with the cabinet in the condition it is. 
i would not have bought it like this for £50, and it is still not of use to me, but its cheaper to pay £50 for the cabinet that the return courier fee?
I have photographs to prove the damage, plus messages where he's told me he left it outside and it got water damaged, and that he feels bad about it, so i can prove that.

So to be clear. How was this paid within paypal?
Did they invoice you?
Or did you pay via Friends & Family?

Given you paid their fee's as well.

If it's F&F then there is no recourse through paypal. You will have to take @pinkshoes advice.

km1500

yes the seller behaved appallingly no one is disputing that.

however, the point i am making is that the item became yours when you agreed to buy it,  and the seller was under no obligation to store it for you

yes ebay and vinted give you layers of protection but fb marketplace do not.

if, in the future, you buy something on fb for collection then go and collect it immedately as the risk.is all yours

ebay is safer as they do give you some protection.

wannahouse

born_again said:

wannahouse said:

I bought an item of antique furniture from FB marketplace.
I paid via paypal and added extra money to cover the fees so the seller wouldn't be out of pocket.
I booked a pickup from a courier on shiply who was to pick up on the Monday, but they were disorganised and got all the details wrong and didnt show up.
I notified the man that they weren't coming and they had been banned from the Shiply site, so I was arranging a different company to pick up the item, and some did as few days later.
After they picked it up, the seller messaged me to say it had been picked up and that the drawer wouldnt go into the furniture anymore as it had swollen due to moisture, but not to worry, give it a few days and it will dry out!
Turns out he dumped the antique cabinet outside in the stormy weather on the monday and just left it outside all week until it was collected!
This was a £250 item btw!
When it turned up, I was so upset as its wrecked!
All the veneer has swollen up and is bumpy and is splitting as its drying on the doors and a whole strip of trim just fell off it at the front.
The drawer has not just been exposure to moisture - it is completely water stained and the inside of the drawer all the veneer has raised up and is riply.
its wrecked.
I am now out of pocket £325 for a junk piece of furniture, incl the £75 courier fee.
I messaged the man politely and showed him pics of its condition and he said he feels bad about it and we can come to a solution, and he offered £100 back.
I said I feel that is unfair, as he was careless with the item AND he failed to notify me of the damage, giving me a chance to cancel the courier and get a refund and just sent it off to me after ruining it with no chance to refuse it, and in the condition its in, it is worthless as its just a junk piece of damaged furniture now, not a pristine antique.
He said bad luck then, not his fault and he can't do anything further.

I should not be out of pocket hundreds of pounds, because he negligently put the furniture outside for days in wet weather.
Fortunately i did pay as a purchase on paypal so can raise a dispute.
However i am not sure what option to choose to complain, as if i pick "damaged and defective item" i think i may only get a refund if i return it.
That will cost me a further £75 to send back via the courier, leaving me with nothing and £150 out of pocket for shipping fees, which is not fair.
Should I ask for a partial refund instead?
I paid £258 on paypal incl extra for the fees.
If i ask for a £208 refund, then i wont have to return it, and £50 is more than a generous amount  to leave him with the cabinet in the condition it is. 
i would not have bought it like this for £50, and it is still not of use to me, but its cheaper to pay £50 for the cabinet that the return courier fee?
I have photographs to prove the damage, plus messages where he's told me he left it outside and it got water damaged, and that he feels bad about it, so i can prove that.

So to be clear. How was this paid within paypal?
Did they invoice you?
Or did you pay via Friends & Family?

Given you paid their fee's as well.

If it's F&F then there is no recourse through paypal. You will have to take @pinkshoes advice.

I sent it as a payment for a purchase, not F&F.
And my paypal payment says i have buyer protection.

soolin

km1500 said:

yes the seller behaved appallingly no one is disputing that.

however, the point i am making is that the item became yours when you agreed to buy it,  and the seller was under no obligation to store it for you

yes ebay and vinted give you layers of protection but fb marketplace do not.

if, in the future, you buy something on fb for collection then go and collect it immedately as the risk.is all yours

ebay is safer as they do give you some protection.

Buyer paid safely through PayPal and the payment method trumps any marketplace rules (and actually there aren’t many marketplace rules apart from the usual ones about safety and stuff). Marketplace also cannot over ride UK law , but the difficulty arises with trying to enforce those laws and also how to interpret them when buyer appoints a representative to collect.

Manxman_in_exile

km1500 said:

... Quite a few people who buy things do not seem to understand that once you agree on a sale and payment is made title transfers to the buyer and the seller has no further responsibility in law (eith the obvious caveats for example there has been no misrepresentation etc)

Just for clarification, do you have a legal authority for your proposition that I have put in bold?

As a general proposition I would have thought that it can't possibly be true.  s29 of The Consumer Rights Act, for example, makes a trader responsible for goods until they have been delivered into the physical possession of the consumer.  Consumer Rights Act 2015 (legislation.gov.uk)

I know this situation is slightly different - because the buyer has arranged their own collection - but I would agree with @soolin and @pinkshoes that in this case, even though ownership may have passed to the buyer, the seller must have a duty to take reasonable care of the goods until they come into the possession of the buyer, whether that is his own physical possession or that of his agent.

I think your idea that the seller "has no further responsibility" to take reasonable care of sold goods that remain in his possession is a non-runner.

And if you want to argue that the buyer no longer had the goods in his possession as they'd left them unprotected out in the rain because they thought they were going to be collected by the purchaser's agent, and because of that they no longer had any responsibility for them, then I think that's even less of a runner...

(It's quite clear that the seller was at best negligent and at worst reckless in how they treated the "antique".  It's obvious from the way they informed the OP that the drawer no longer fitted!).

Although I am a bit concerned that the courier engaged by the OP apparently picked up this obviously rain-damaged item without demur and without thinking to contact the OP and inform them of the state it was in.

km1500

Sorry I cannot find any links to the law about looking after somebody else's property but I have always understood this to be the situation. I could of course be wrong

This case is nothing about the selling process - nobody is suggesting that the item was misrepresented or that Facebook marketplace rules were not followed. The sale was complete, the item was as described, there was no misrepresentation and payment was made.

It is what happened after the sale that is the problem

At this point the item belongs to the buyer and it boils down to who bears the risk of accidental damage (I don't think anybody is suggesting that the item was deliberately damaged hence my use of the term accidental)

Since the item no longer belongs to the seller the risk in my view belongs to the buyer

This of course can be trumped by rules of the online marketplace which could for example say that a condtion of using their platform is that the risk remains with the seller until it has been collected or whatever but I do not believe Facebook marketplace has these kind of buyer protection rules

 The buyer did behave badly. I believe that the accidental damage prior to collection is unfortunate but the buyer should have had insurance against that

edit:  I remember a case many years ago where somebody bought a car from a private seller and in between buying it and going to collect it somebody reversed into it causing quite a lot of damage and it was held that it was not the seller's responsibility

wannahouse

There is no mechanism or policy to "insure" a piece of furniture before it is collected.
When the courier came to collect the item, it was not as in the condition it was sold in, and that was done during his watch.
I paid for a car online from a dealer.
They can't suddenly deliver a pile of junk and say bad luck.
he did deliberately damage the item.
He deliberately chose to turn it outside and abandon it during a week of storms across the country, and ANYONE would know that taking that action would damage an antique item, so you can't claim it was accidental.
It was a direct consequence of his deliberate and unnecessary action.
A courier is also not responsible for assessing the condition of an item before moving it.
They are just hired to lift from one address to another.
He would have just assumed that the condition it was presented in was the condition it was sold in and done his job.
The seller had an obligation to make sure that the item he sells remains in listed condition until it is handed over for collection, and then he discharges his responsibility for the item at that point.