Best way to deal with this in paypal resolution centre please?

soolin

wannahouse said:

There is no mechanism or policy to "insure" a piece of furniture before it is collected.
When the courier came to collect the item, it was not as in the condition it was sold in, and that was done during his watch.
I paid for a car online from a dealer.
They can't suddenly deliver a pile of junk and say bad luck.
he did deliberately damage the item.
He deliberately chose to turn it outside and abandon it during a week of storms across the country, and ANYONE would know that taking that action would damage an antique item, so you can't claim it was accidental.
It was a direct consequence of his deliberate and unnecessary action.
A courier is also not responsible for assessing the condition of an item before moving it.
They are just hired to lift from one address to another.
He would have just assumed that the condition it was presented in was the condition it was sold in and done his job.
The seller had an obligation to make sure that the item he sells remains in listed condition until it is handed over for collection, and then he discharges his responsibility for the item at that point.

This has been an interesting discussion but as I feared there is not a straightforward guaranteed answer anyone can give you, the varied responses and suggestions show that even random users on a forum can't agree.  Ultimately you have limited options on how you proceed and I would suggest that you make a decision sooner rather than later if you want to attempt to get this resolved, I can see no easy way for you to walk away from this without having lost money somewhere, it all depends on how much more you are willing to gamble. A paypal claim for SNAD won't cost you anything upfront but might cost you return courier fees. small claims will probably expect you to have at least tried a paypal claim first before paying to go forward with them.

wannahouse

I did lodge a paypal claim yesterday, infact a paypal staff member lodged it on my behalf as everytime i tried to submit through their site on any browser, it came up with an error message their end.
I submitted a PDF of all evidence, and so far the seller has ignored that too, 24 hrs later.
If it was me that was the seller and I felt I was in the right, i'd be straight on there to defend myself.
The Paypal reps personal opinion was that is was deplorable behaviour from a seller, right down to the blocking to get rid of me, but what the official outcome will be, who knows.
The seller might get a surprise if he thinks he can just ignore this one too and pretend it doesn't exist.
If he doesn't respond in 10 days, paypal said they would initiate a refund.
I will update with the paypal outcome anyway, so people can see what their position is.

pinkshoes

wannahouse said:

I did lodge a paypal claim yesterday, infact a paypal staff member lodged it on my behalf as everytime i tried to submit through their site on any browser, it came up with an error message their end.
I submitted a PDF of all evidence, and so far the seller has ignored that too, 24 hrs later.
If it was me that was the seller and I felt I was in the right, i'd be straight on there to defend myself.
The Paypal reps personal opinion was that is was deplorable behaviour from a seller, right down to the blocking to get rid of me, but what the official outcome will be, who knows.
The seller might get a surprise if he thinks he can just ignore this one too and pretend it doesn't exist.
If he doesn't respond in 10 days, paypal said they would initiate a refund.
I will update with the paypal outcome anyway, so people can see what their position is.

That's a good step.

Your issue now is if the seller responds and wants the item back (which is fair if refunding) and you will then need to send it back TRACKED!

PayPal rules require TRACKING.

I would suggest you now get a courier quote to get it sent back. 

If the item is worth £0 as it's so damaged, then spending £75 on a courier to get £258 back is worth it. 

You could then consider taking this further to claim back the wasted £150 in courier fees from the  but as this is rather complicated (you accepted the item by collecting but the seller has deliberately defrauded you in sending out an item they knew was damaged in their care and knowing full well a courier wouldn't know this) then you'll need to think carefully.

If the seller knew YOU were collecting it yourself and driving a long way (rather than a courier), would they have notified you of the severe damage before travelling? I think they would... Would a judge think that? You'll have to decide.

soolin

wannahouse said:

I did lodge a paypal claim yesterday, infact a paypal staff member lodged it on my behalf as everytime i tried to submit through their site on any browser, it came up with an error message their end.
I submitted a PDF of all evidence, and so far the seller has ignored that too, 24 hrs later.
If it was me that was the seller and I felt I was in the right, i'd be straight on there to defend myself.
The Paypal reps personal opinion was that is was deplorable behaviour from a seller, right down to the blocking to get rid of me, but what the official outcome will be, who knows.
The seller might get a surprise if he thinks he can just ignore this one too and pretend it doesn't exist.
If he doesn't respond in 10 days, paypal said they would initiate a refund.
I will update with the paypal outcome anyway, so people can see what their position is.

Thank you, an update is always useful.

As you say if seller does not respond then that is a very good outcome for you as you will get your refund without having to return the item. Then seller would have to contact you to arrange to get the item back at his own cost. I have actually had this happen in the past, seller has tried to be clever and ignore an open SNAD claim and was furious when I won it on day 11 by default, I did return the item as it was small but only after I got the seller to send a fully tracked pre paid label for a courier that was convenient for me to drop a parcel off. 

wannahouse

pinkshoes said:

wannahouse said:

I did lodge a paypal claim yesterday, infact a paypal staff member lodged it on my behalf as everytime i tried to submit through their site on any browser, it came up with an error message their end.
I submitted a PDF of all evidence, and so far the seller has ignored that too, 24 hrs later.
If it was me that was the seller and I felt I was in the right, i'd be straight on there to defend myself.
The Paypal reps personal opinion was that is was deplorable behaviour from a seller, right down to the blocking to get rid of me, but what the official outcome will be, who knows.
The seller might get a surprise if he thinks he can just ignore this one too and pretend it doesn't exist.
If he doesn't respond in 10 days, paypal said they would initiate a refund.
I will update with the paypal outcome anyway, so people can see what their position is.

That's a good step.

Your issue now is if the seller responds and wants the item back (which is fair if refunding) and you will then need to send it back TRACKED!

PayPal rules require TRACKING.

I would suggest you now get a courier quote to get it sent back. 

If the item is worth £0 as it's so damaged, then spending £75 on a courier to get £258 back is worth it. 

You could then consider taking this further to claim back the wasted £150 in courier fees from the  but as this is rather complicated (you accepted the item by collecting but the seller has deliberately defrauded you in sending out an item they knew was damaged in their care and knowing full well a courier wouldn't know this) then you'll need to think carefully.

If the seller knew YOU were collecting it yourself and driving a long way (rather than a courier), would they have notified you of the severe damage before travelling? I think they would... Would a judge think that? You'll have to decide.

So I have an update.
Thanks for everyones help so far.

We have been through 2 appeals.
I uploaded a uge amount of evidence including pics and screenshots of entire conversation.
Paypal did not look at any of that, and closed the dispute in the sellers favour 15 mins after he finally replied with pics, on day 9.
The seller USED THE PICS OF IT FOR SALE as evidence of its condition to "prove" there was nothing wrong with it.
I couldn't see any of the sellers responses on the dispute- only my own, but he "unblocked" me from facebook to message me and tell me so!
I was so angry i was literally shaking when i rang paypal when i got that email through.
I had hard evidence he knew and admitted it was water damaged before he sent it to me, but he tricked them by sending pics of it undamaged.
The paypal rep looked ay my evidence and said they don't know why it was found in his favour and that wasnt right so they put it back up for appeal which was then closed as soon as he responded in his favour because "The item was altered or damaged "after the buyer took possession" which again was a lie!
He said that i needed to call my couriers and speak to them and claim off them as they damaged the item, not him!

So i rang paypal again and pointed to the fact this was a proven lie as the seller ADMITTED it was damaged in his possession and they opened the case again.
Soon after i got an email saying i will get a full refund of £258, once i provide evidence of tracking upon returning the item to the seller.

So that is still going to leave me out of pocket for £150 for courier fees both ways
A whole week of food budget for our family of 7!
All because this shady man lied to palm off a piece of crap furniture for his gain.

And the real interesting thing is, that I did call the couriers (and my phone records calls so i have it recorded) , not because I feel any of it is their fault, but to ask them to take the item back to him and return it, and i told them what happened, and they shed some new light on the whole thing!
Firstly they were livid he blamed them for the damage, and they told me that when they arrived, the item was indeed out in the open. This guy sells house clearance items, so has alot of stuff there and ITS ALL JUST STORED OUTSIDE!
So it never was in his house!
He took the photos of the condition when he got the unit and then left it outside for weeks before it was sold along with a load of other things.
They had tarps thrown over stuff, but not enough to protect them properly and when they pulled the tarp back to get the item out, the courier said all the items of furniture were ruined by water damage!
The man said to him, pointing to two other units/sets of drawers "Do you want to take those two with you also, because they are too wrecked to sell so i want to get rid of them".
The seller actually sent me a pic of these two items and asked it I wanted them, but I noticed the top of them was all swollen and cracked and ruined, and they were junk, so I said no, plus i don't want to be collecting other peoples unwanted junk, so he obviously offered them to the courier to take with him.
The courier had no idea of what condition i bought my unit in or what i paid for it, but noticed that the drawer was swollen and jammed out and it too was water damaged.

The courier company said they will write a statement for me testifying to all of that if I want to pursue a MCOL.
Is it worth trying to get the courier fees back from him?
Sometimes when things accidentally happen I have just let it slide and moved on, but this guy deliberately misrepresented the condition of the item and has caused me a substantial loss as a result.

With the sellers admission it was water damaged before the couriers collected it and the couriers testament that ALL his items were permanently stored outside and water damaged from what they witnessed, would I have a chance of holding him responsible in a MCOL case?

soolin

PayPal acted exactly as stated in their t and c’s - full refund on return of item. Whilst you have lost money on this shady deal and I feel very bad for you it is absolutely right that seller can expect to get their item back, the alternative would be dodgy buyers telling PayPal their items were damaged and getting a refund and keeping the item. 

Your situation is complicated by the fact that you or your representative collected the item and you paid for that collection, not the seller  something that is not recommended.

You do obviously have the possibility of the small claims route to claim back your courier fees, but as above I don’t think this is a definite win for you and you need to decide whether to spend more money chasing a possible win, or not. Even if you win at small claims they don’t just get seller to pay up there and then, you would potentially need to spend more money chasing the debt if seller tries to be clever and holds out against paying. 

wannahouse

soolin said:

PayPal acted exactly as stated in their t and c’s - full refund on return of item. Whilst you have lost money on this shady deal and I feel very bad for you it is absolutely right that seller can expect to get their item back, the alternative would be dodgy buyers telling PayPal their items were damaged and getting a refund and keeping the item. 

Your situation is complicated by the fact that you or your representative collected the item and you paid for that collection, not the seller  something that is not recommended.

You do obviously have the possibility of the small claims route to claim back your courier fees, but as above I don’t think this is a definite win for you and you need to decide whether to spend more money chasing a possible win, or not. Even if you win at small claims they don’t just get seller to pay up there and then, you would potentially need to spend more money chasing the debt if seller tries to be clever and holds out against paying. 

The courier suggested i write a note and tape it inside the cabinet somewhere, under a drawer or something stating that the item was returned as it was severely waterdamaged and the seller is aware of this, incase he gets the item back and pulls the same scam on someone else!
That way if someone else gets ripped off they KNOW it was not an accident!

wannahouse

So another update, just for anyone wondering what happened...
I agreed to pay a furniture courier yet again to return the item to the seller in order to get my refund on the purchase price (but still be £150 out of pocket for two way courier fee).
However, the SELLER knew, when offering that, that he would be away and unable to recieve a delivery, meaning it could not be delivered signed for in the window of time paypal gave me in order to get my refund!
I am livid.
He has been a sheister the whole way through this process, and never had any intention of refunding my money, but thought he could just burn more of my cash on getting me to return it, knowing i could never get a refund, as he away until the 10th october. (return window closes on 29th sept!)
So there we are. 
no real protection from paypal and a dodgy seller who knows how to game the system!

jeffuk

Has your courier attempted delivery yet?

soolin

If you have online tracking showing attempted delivery upload that to the paypal case and then PHONE paypal and explain that seller is deliberately avoiding accepting the item. You will win the case at that point .