Neighbours gutters

gorbalsgerry

This is a photo of other side now.

Bendy_House

gorbalsgerry said:

Section62 said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

So other than your made up put them on notice letter....

It isn't "made up".

Writing to a neighbour to place them 'on notice' is (at least in England) a recognised early step in what may become a legal dispute.  Formalising the issue in the form of a letter means there is evidence that the neighbour was aware (on a specific date) they were causing a problem and what the OP wanted done as a result.  The letter could subsequently be used as part of the evidence to show that the OP had sought to resolve the issue by negotiation/discussion, rather than rushing to law.

Courts (in England) expect people to attempt to resolve issues between themselves (except where there are reasons not to, e.g. violence is a factor) and placing the neighbour 'on notice' is a way of doing this in a more formal manner, a step (or more) before issuing a letter before action.

The situation in Scotland might be different, but I can't comment on that.

The alternative of taking direct action is risky.  In the OP's case it appears that the relevant part of the gutter downpipe which would need to be removed/modified is wholly on the neighbour's property.  Intentional damage to the neighbour's property could - in certain circumstances - be regarded as criminal damage.  At the very least, if the issue gets to court in a civil case, the 'direct action' may lead a judge (/sheriff?) to make adverse assumptions about the motives/temperament of the person involved.

Moreover, it appears the gutter in question is above some kind of conservatory/porch on the OP's property, which would make access to modify the guttering himself difficult/dangerous.  I wouldn't recommend that anyone attempted to work at height to do something like this, without me first understanding what risks might be involved in doing so.  People who have advised the OP to just take matters into his own hands probably haven't given much thought to the practicality/safety of doing so, especially in the context of a neighbour dispute where tempers may be frayed and judgement less sound.

Finally, we should not ignore the possibility that the OP is mistaken and that the method of drainage has not substantially changed.  If he removes the neighbour's downpipe when they have an established/legal right to discharge into his gutter then Gerry could be facing potentially serious consequences.  Gerry says he has photos (of the original arrangement) to prove it.  It might be useful if one of those was shared with us, so everybody has a better understanding of what is going on here.

The gutting has been changed substantially as the downspout was never there and they have also changed direction of their gutters. The photo is of two houses with her roof being about a foot and a half above mine. I managed to access photos from Google earth to prove that the changes had taken place especially the downspout. 

Gerry, I think we have a full picture of what's happened. And you have been very patient.

Please call up your insurance company, in the hope that they'll give you advice on how to proceed, or even take this action themselves - they do have a vested interest. And, if nothing else, you will have informed them of this issue, so there won't be any "Why didn't you tell us sooner" malarkey.

(If they tell you the best action to take is to block or divert the neighbour's gutter back on to their own property, then please let us know and I'll go out and buy a hat, and eat in live, on here, in front of DD.)

Bendy_House

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Gerry to insurance co: "Hi. I have this problem where my neighbour is diverted his rainwater into my gutter and is causing it to overflow - it will almost certainly cause damage to my property."

ItoG: "Have you spoken to them about this?"

GtoI: "Yes, I have - in writing - outlined what is they have done, why it was wrong to do so - also citing our deeds - what the result of their action is, and also put them on notice that they will be liable for any subsequent damage if they don't sort it."

ItoG: "Wow! That is brilliant! You must have had some grreeeaaat advice from a really cooool bloke! No worries, we'll sort this."

GtoI: "Fab!"

ItoG: "Can I ask what the situation is now?"

GtoI: "Oh, I've diverted the water back over their house - 'reckon I've caused £10k's worth so far - that'll bladdy teach 'em "

ItoG: sound of gentle weeping.

JC wrote that, not me. I'm too modest.

How will they sort it, send a letter or advise the OP speaks to a solicitor?

I'll ask you again, should the OP not be limiting any/further damage to their home?

Not if it risks causing damage to the neighbour's home as a result.

Anything Gerry can reasonably do to mitigate damage is fine, but he shouldn't be climbing ladders, or asking anyone else to do so,  make any modifications that could lead to damage to another person's property. He shouldn't be doing this, nor should he be expected to.

It would be a completely different situation if, say, the neighb's DP had popped out of place causing water to come on to G's property, and the neighb - when approached about it - couldn't be arrissed to fix it. If all G had to do was to pop the pipe back into place from ground level - at no risk to himself - it would likely be deemed unreasonable if he didn't do so. I wouldn't, in such a scenario, being suggesting G just PONs and leaves it, even tho' the neighb is 'responsible' for it. But, if that pipe was clearly going to pop out again in time without being properly fixed in place, guess what he should do? Yes. PON.

Yes, it's 'unfair' to some degree, but folk shouldn't be taking things into their own hands, when there are correct ways of doing this. It will as likely lead to an escalation of the situation, as it would a resolution - it will certainly muddy the waters, fnurrr. If there is any risk of a 'dispute' escalating or not being resolved without legalities, my advice would be to keep your nose scrupulously clean. And that includes in the manner you communicate - just everything.

Since we are seemingly in the 'asking you again' situation, what would happen if you cap or divert the neighbour's gutter?

(I'm getting the feeling I'm answering all your Qs, but you aren't reciprocating. Your first name isn't Boris by any chance?)

At £7 a length for down pipe diverting into the middle of the neighbours garden will sort the matter. Six weeks is too long but your suggestion may see it sorted by next summer. 

I won't reply. I won't I won't.

Nah, can't help it - that is very silly. A length of DP that long would cost at least £11.

DanDare999

Bendy_House said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Gerry to insurance co: "Hi. I have this problem where my neighbour is diverted his rainwater into my gutter and is causing it to overflow - it will almost certainly cause damage to my property."

ItoG: "Have you spoken to them about this?"

GtoI: "Yes, I have - in writing - outlined what is they have done, why it was wrong to do so - also citing our deeds - what the result of their action is, and also put them on notice that they will be liable for any subsequent damage if they don't sort it."

ItoG: "Wow! That is brilliant! You must have had some grreeeaaat advice from a really cooool bloke! No worries, we'll sort this."

GtoI: "Fab!"

ItoG: "Can I ask what the situation is now?"

GtoI: "Oh, I've diverted the water back over their house - 'reckon I've caused £10k's worth so far - that'll bladdy teach 'em "

ItoG: sound of gentle weeping.

JC wrote that, not me. I'm too modest.

How will they sort it, send a letter or advise the OP speaks to a solicitor?

I'll ask you again, should the OP not be limiting any/further damage to their home?

Not if it risks causing damage to the neighbour's home as a result.

Anything Gerry can reasonably do to mitigate damage is fine, but he shouldn't be climbing ladders, or asking anyone else to do so,  make any modifications that could lead to damage to another person's property. He shouldn't be doing this, nor should he be expected to.

It would be a completely different situation if, say, the neighb's DP had popped out of place causing water to come on to G's property, and the neighb - when approached about it - couldn't be arrissed to fix it. If all G had to do was to pop the pipe back into place from ground level - at no risk to himself - it would likely be deemed unreasonable if he didn't do so. I wouldn't, in such a scenario, being suggesting G just PONs and leaves it, even tho' the neighb is 'responsible' for it. But, if that pipe was clearly going to pop out again in time without being properly fixed in place, guess what he should do? Yes. PON.

Yes, it's 'unfair' to some degree, but folk shouldn't be taking things into their own hands, when there are correct ways of doing this. It will as likely lead to an escalation of the situation, as it would a resolution - it will certainly muddy the waters, fnurrr. If there is any risk of a 'dispute' escalating or not being resolved without legalities, my advice would be to keep your nose scrupulously clean. And that includes in the manner you communicate - just everything.

Since we are seemingly in the 'asking you again' situation, what would happen if you cap or divert the neighbour's gutter?

(I'm getting the feeling I'm answering all your Qs, but you aren't reciprocating. Your first name isn't Boris by any chance?)

At £7 a length for down pipe diverting into the middle of the neighbours garden will sort the matter. Six weeks is too long but your suggestion may see it sorted by next summer. 

I won't reply. I won't I won't.

Nah, can't help it - that is very silly. A length of DP that long would cost at least £11.

Given it's front and back I didn't say one would sort it.

DanDare999

gorbalsgerry said:

This is a photo of other side now.

Given they have put a screw in, I'd say they're determined it's not going to be moved any time soon.


Also be aware this dispute could have an issue if/when you come to sell.

Bendy_House

The other reason for doing things 'properly' is so that the neighbour just knows, and learns. I've done wrong, I've been told, I sorted it, I have learnt.

A tit-for-tat escalation, probably ending up in mediation in the first instance, will most likely leave both parties feeling wrong done by, even the original miscreant who started it all off.

It's like when a neighbour rants and raves about an issue when they know they are on dodgy ground (this does NOT apply here, of course - no ranting), what they want, actively desire, is for the other party to respond in kind. They have then - in their deluded minds - been given the 'reason', the 'excuse' for their actions in the first place; the other person is an unreasonable ranter.

Instead, being confronted by the Leviathan - and being put back firmly in their place - is very sobering. No more grey.

Section62

DanDare999 said:

Section62 said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

So other than your made up put them on notice letter....

It isn't "made up".

Writing to a neighbour to place them 'on notice' is (at least in England) a recognised early step in what may become a legal dispute.  Formalising the issue in the form of a letter means there is evidence that the neighbour was aware (on a specific date) they were causing a problem and what the OP wanted done as a result.  The letter could subsequently be used as part of the evidence to show that the OP had sought to resolve the issue by negotiation/discussion, rather than rushing to law.

Courts (in England) expect people to attempt to resolve issues between themselves (except where there are reasons not to, e.g. violence is a factor) and placing the neighbour 'on notice' is a way of doing this in a more formal manner, a step (or more) before issuing a letter before action.

The situation in Scotland might be different, but I can't comment on that.

The alternative of taking direct action is risky.  In the OP's case it appears that the relevant part of the gutter downpipe which would need to be removed/modified is wholly on the neighbour's property.  Intentional damage to the neighbour's property could - in certain circumstances - be regarded as criminal damage.  At the very least, if the issue gets to court in a civil case, the 'direct action' may lead a judge (/sheriff?) to make adverse assumptions about the motives/temperament of the person involved.

Moreover, it appears the gutter in question is above some kind of conservatory/porch on the OP's property, which would make access to modify the guttering himself difficult/dangerous.  I wouldn't recommend that anyone attempted to work at height to do something like this, without me first understanding what risks might be involved in doing so.  People who have advised the OP to just take matters into his own hands probably haven't given much thought to the practicality/safety of doing so, especially in the context of a neighbour dispute where tempers may be frayed and judgement less sound.

Finally, we should not ignore the possibility that the OP is mistaken and that the method of drainage has not substantially changed.  If he removes the neighbour's downpipe when they have an established/legal right to discharge into his gutter then Gerry could be facing potentially serious consequences.  Gerry says he has photos (of the original arrangement) to prove it.  It might be useful if one of those was shared with us, so everybody has a better understanding of what is going on here.

Show me something to back up that letter, specifically with the term "on notice".

I'm not a lawyer.

If you would like legal advice I'd suggest you pay for that to be provided by a professional of your choice.

Section62

gorbalsgerry said:

Section62 said:

The gutting has been changed substantially as the downspout was never there and they have also changed direction of their gutters. The photo is of two houses with her roof being about a foot and a half above mine. I managed to access photos from Google earth to prove that the changes had taken place especially the downspout. 

Gerry, could you please confirm if this is (the rear of) your house, as seen on streetview in 2009?  I think  it is based on comparing the 2022 streetview image with your pictures, but want to check before commenting further as there's no point if I've got the wrong property.

DanDare999

Section62 said:

DanDare999 said:

Section62 said:

DanDare999 said:

Section62 said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

So other than your made up put them on notice letter....

It isn't "made up".

Writing to a neighbour to place them 'on notice' is (at least in England) a recognised early step in what may become a legal dispute.  Formalising the issue in the form of a letter means there is evidence that the neighbour was aware (on a specific date) they were causing a problem and what the OP wanted done as a result.  The letter could subsequently be used as part of the evidence to show that the OP had sought to resolve the issue by negotiation/discussion, rather than rushing to law.

Courts (in England) expect people to attempt to resolve issues between themselves (except where there are reasons not to, e.g. violence is a factor) and placing the neighbour 'on notice' is a way of doing this in a more formal manner, a step (or more) before issuing a letter before action.

The situation in Scotland might be different, but I can't comment on that.

The alternative of taking direct action is risky.  In the OP's case it appears that the relevant part of the gutter downpipe which would need to be removed/modified is wholly on the neighbour's property.  Intentional damage to the neighbour's property could - in certain circumstances - be regarded as criminal damage.  At the very least, if the issue gets to court in a civil case, the 'direct action' may lead a judge (/sheriff?) to make adverse assumptions about the motives/temperament of the person involved.

Moreover, it appears the gutter in question is above some kind of conservatory/porch on the OP's property, which would make access to modify the guttering himself difficult/dangerous.  I wouldn't recommend that anyone attempted to work at height to do something like this, without me first understanding what risks might be involved in doing so.  People who have advised the OP to just take matters into his own hands probably haven't given much thought to the practicality/safety of doing so, especially in the context of a neighbour dispute where tempers may be frayed and judgement less sound.

Finally, we should not ignore the possibility that the OP is mistaken and that the method of drainage has not substantially changed.  If he removes the neighbour's downpipe when they have an established/legal right to discharge into his gutter then Gerry could be facing potentially serious consequences.  Gerry says he has photos (of the original arrangement) to prove it.  It might be useful if one of those was shared with us, so everybody has a better understanding of what is going on here.

Show me something to back up that letter, specifically with the term "on notice".

I'm not a lawyer.

If you would like legal advice I'd suggest you pay for that to be provided by a professional of your choice.

So you could be wrong then.  

I could be, but I'm not.

I've spent years dealing with this kind of thing in a professional capacity, whilst not being a lawyer.

If you are unhappy with the 'general' advice being given to another poster on this forum and want a 'legal' opinion regarding the process (which as I've already said is not defined in legislation) then you'd need to consult a solicitor.

DanDare999 said:

gorbalsgerry said:

This is a photo of other side now.

Given they have put a screw in, I'd say they're determined it's not going to be moved any time soon.

I'd interpret that as something far less dramatic - the offset bend is not clipped, neither is the downstream pipe.  Without that screw the offset bend won't stay on the vertical pipe, it will just fall off.

So you've actually come across that specific term. Interesting that nobody can evidence it. 

Bendy_House

Section62 said:

gorbalsgerry said:

Section62 said:

The gutting has been changed substantially as the downspout was never there and they have also changed direction of their gutters. The photo is of two houses with her roof being about a foot and a half above mine. I managed to access photos from Google earth to prove that the changes had taken place especially the downspout. 

Gerry, could you please confirm if this is (the rear of) your house, as seen on streetview in 2009?  I think  it is based on comparing the 2022 streetview image with your pictures, but want to check before commenting further as there's no point if I've got the wrong property.

Gulp - forensic doesn't even begin :-O