Understanding disparity around us

masonic

Daliah said:

Yes, I know we also have pensioners in the higher rate tax band. I am one of them. It doesn't mean I am happy that we have people living in poverty in the UK, and people needing to go to foodbanks and claim UC even if they have jobs. No doubt someone will come along and remind us that foodbanks are rather uplifting, and that typical foodbank users just have a cashflow problem.

It will be interesting to see what is said of the users of the 'warmbanks' that are now being set up for the winter.

zagfles

RG2015 said:

zagfles said:

RG2015 said:

zagfles said:

RG2015 said:

Daliah said:

Isn't it amazing that so many people have plenty of income and/or assets but very little if not no apparent compassion. Sure, there are benefit scroungers, just like there are tax evaders and other criminals. Everyone has the opportunity to report such scoundrels, and we have enough authorities that can deal with them.

Most of the people living in poverty in the UK - even if it's 'merely' relative poverty - find it impossible to get out of it, and it's not for want of trying. Brushing their plight away on the grounds that there are even poorer people in other countries is quite shocking.

I am not sure, though, whether this complex subject is really suitable for the Savings and Investment board.

The OP is talking about understanding the disparity.

People on this board are discussing saving and investing surplus cash. Compare this with people in this country who are struggling to make ends meet.

The word poverty is being used to describe the plight of people in the UK and also people in poorer parts of the world. The word means two different things making it relative.

I agree with the OP. This is absolutely the right place for their post. 

Indeed. I think the main problem is that the "people who struggle to make ends meet" are not necessarily the same people defined as being "in poverty". There's probably not even a vast overlap. There are lots of reasons people struggle to make end meet, and to assume it's all people "in poverty" means you ignore all the other people who struggle, and you provide no solution for them.

Stuff like financial management, understanding loans, interest, credit cards, getting good value on stuff like mobiles, food/clothes shopping etc. Pensions and savings too, save when you can, having a decent emergency fund for a rainy day as we'll probably all have this winter will be a massive cushion.

IME whether you struggle financially or not is far more about spending habits and financial management than income level.

If people are in poverty then by definition they will be struggling to make ends meet.

No they aren't. That's the point. The "in poverty" definition just uses equivalised relative income measures. Not measures of affordability. Sea Shell and her OH (sorry to use you as an example again ) live on well under the poverty line. She doesn't struggle to make end meet.

Sorry @zagfles , I think that we are at cross purposes.

There may be a quantitative definition of poverty in the UK and elsewhere, but I am using the term qualitatively.

My reason for this is that I do not believe that a measurement can accurately describe someone's need. This is aptly demonstrated by your example of someone not in any great need but technically "in poverty". 

My definition is quite simply someone in desperate need due to their dire financial circumstance.

Ah OK, fair enough. I did say that I think the main problem is that the "people who struggle to make ends meet" are not necessarily the same people defined as being "in poverty" (ie defined by the govt or pressure groups who seek to tackle poverty).

The problem is that most solutions proposed always seem to target those meeting the official definition of poverty, or a similar definition, ie an income based definition. Rather than any sort of attempt to look at and tackle other reasons, such as inability to budget, understanding finance, debt etc.

In fact when people do try to propose tackling these other issues, you get people jumping up and down saying we mustn't be "judgemental" about people who struggle, we should just throw money at them. The point isn't to be "judgemental", it's to understand and tackle the underlying cause instead of jumping to the conclusion that it's all down to nasty govts not giving them enough benefits.

bostonerimus

I think I got the best of the UK when I was growing up there in the 1960s and 70s and going to college in the 1980s. I could walk to the local library, the local CofE nursery school was inexpensive and I learned responsibility by being a "milk monitor". The NHS seemed to work and a nurse was continually either jabbing my arm or giving me sugar cubes that tasted bitter. I learned maths in different bases by doing basic accounting and RE lessons convinced me that often adults talked a lot of obvious nonsense. My secondary school was a comprehensive with a good mix of pupils and good teachers who took us to the theatre and local museums, and when I went to college I had no money worries because tuition was paid and I got a grant. I left with a load of degrees and a positive bank balance, looked around at late 80s job opportunities and decided to move abroad.

I go back to my home town now and the library and nursery school are both closed. Kids don't seem to have the same aspirations that me and my friends had, and a lot of the well paid jobs in the chemical and steel industry are gone. When I was going to school and college there was a belief that a working class kid could succeed through education and I had heroes like Alan Bleasdale, Dennis Potter and Christopher Hitchens who were examples of working class intellectuals...Hitchens was maybe more middle class. But that seems to be far less the case now as wages and opportunities seem to be diverging across the social strata. 

I'll always be grateful to the UK that I grew up in for giving me the opportunities to develop myself and succeed; I wonder if I would be as successful growing up in today's Britain? The brightest spot for me is my grand niece and nephew who took the money I gave them for Christmas and spent it on a trip to Scotland to ride the Harry Potter train and tickets to see the RSC's production of "My Neighbour Totoro" at the Barbican. I hope they can use their education and brains to succeed.

Prism

I am always undecided about this topic. Take pensioners for example living on just the state pension. It is impossible, and possibly irrelevant by this point, to know if that person does not have any extra savings because they couldn't afford to save towards a personal pension, never had the opportunity due to bringing up children, ran into an unfortunate situation or simply decided to spend their money on other things during life. I have sympathy with the former cases but little with the latter. Once someone is in poverty then maybe it doesn't matter what scenario got them to that point.

Zola.

Albermarle said:

I find it vaguely amusing to see all these highly paid newsreaders and politicians, trying to make out that they are all personally worrying about the increased cost of living, along with the poor downtrodden masses.

Personally I think the stories about more people not eating etc., are isolated cases hyped up by the media as in reality the cost of living issues are only just starting to bite. By the Autumn, pretty much everything we buy will have gone up in price, sometimes more than once and then the cold weather will come and the real impact of the energy prices will be felt. Then the squeeze will really start to be felt in the lower income sections of society. Xmas might keep the tills ringing but in the dark days after that, many people will be really feeling  the pinch.

Think this is bang on the money....costs are going up and being noticed but it will take time to have a real impact.

It will be bleak for many come winter, especially when everyone has to use the heat and Christmas is long past us. Jan - April will be tough. 

I just bought 3 ton bags of wood for my stove which should keep downstairs toasty in evenings without much radiator use when I start firing it up again in a couple months time... the guy who delivers our stuff told me he's never been so busy at this time of the year... many are preparing for it it seems...

zagfles

masonic said:

Daliah said:

Yes, I know we also have pensioners in the higher rate tax band. I am one of them. It doesn't mean I am happy that we have people living in poverty in the UK, and people needing to go to foodbanks and claim UC even if they have jobs. No doubt someone will come along and remind us that foodbanks are rather uplifting, and that typical foodbank users just have a cashflow problem.

It will be interesting to see what is said of the users of the 'warmbanks' that are now being set up for the winter.

Interesting discussion on foodbanks (started by MSE towers!) here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6374618/money-moral-dilemma-should-someone-who-earns-a-decent-wage-use-food-banks/p1

zagfles

Daliah said:

Some comments get ever nastier. Not sure why it is so difficult for some to understand that plenty of those UK residents classed as living in poverty are quite simply unable to change their income. Here's another example. Take the household of a single pensioner in their late 70s or early 80s who has to get by on less than £200 a week. It was tough to pay for everything from that even before the utilities skyrocketed, and goodness knows how they will manage this winter, even with the one-off extra payments some of them will get. Pensioners aren't even the worst example for people at the bottom end of UK incomes. The fact that they have more than millions of people in poorer countries isn't an argument for why it should be ok that they need to scrimp every day.

Yes, I know we also have pensioners in the higher rate tax band. I am one of them. It doesn't mean I am happy that we have people living in poverty in the UK, and people needing to go to foodbanks and claim UC even if they have jobs. No doubt someone will come along and remind us that foodbanks are rather uplifting, and that typical foodbank users just have a cashflow problem.

Well maybe try responding to the points raised instead of sanctimonious and judgemental posts about other posters.

Nobody has said there aren't those who struggle because of their income level. But there are those who struggle because of their spending habits, ability to budget etc. It would be very "nasty" to let them continue to struggle because they don't meet some arbitary definition of "poverty". But it seems some people object to it even being pointed out that they exist.

zagfles

bostonerimus said:

I think I got the best of the UK when I was growing up there in the 1960s and 70s and going to college in the 1980s. I could walk to the local library, the local CofE nursery school was inexpensive and I learned responsibility by being a "milk monitor". The NHS seemed to work and a nurse was continually either jabbing my arm or giving me sugar cubes that tasted bitter. I learned maths in different bases by doing basic accounting and RE lessons convinced me that often adults talked a lot of obvious nonsense. My secondary school was a comprehensive with a good mix of pupils and good teachers who took us to the theatre and local museums, and when I went to college I had no money worries because tuition was paid and I got a grant. I left with a load of degrees and a positive bank balance, looked around at late 80s job opportunities and decided to move abroad.

I go back to my home town now and the library and nursery school are both closed. Kids don't seem to have the same aspirations that me and my friends had, and a lot of the well paid jobs in the chemical and steel industry are gone. When I was going to school and college there was a belief that a working class kid could succeed through education and I had heroes like Alan Bleasdale, Dennis Potter and Christopher Hitchens who were examples of working class intellectuals...Hitchens was maybe more middle class. But that seems to be far less the case now as wages and opportunities seem to be diverging across the social strata. 

I'll always be grateful to the UK that I grew up in for giving me the opportunities to develop myself and succeed; I wonder if I would be as successful growing up in today's Britain? The brightest spot for me is my grand niece and nephew who took the money I gave them for Christmas and spent it on a trip to Scotland to ride the Harry Potter train and tickets to see the RSC's production of "My Neighbour Totoro" at the Barbican. I hope they can use their education and brains to succeed.

Indeed - maybe we should return to the real terms spending levels on benefits etc as then. Spending far less certainly seemed to have produced better results. Maybe people were better motivated, or less materialistic?

masonic

zagfles said:

masonic said:

Daliah said:

Yes, I know we also have pensioners in the higher rate tax band. I am one of them. It doesn't mean I am happy that we have people living in poverty in the UK, and people needing to go to foodbanks and claim UC even if they have jobs. No doubt someone will come along and remind us that foodbanks are rather uplifting, and that typical foodbank users just have a cashflow problem.

It will be interesting to see what is said of the users of the 'warmbanks' that are now being set up for the winter.

Interesting discussion on foodbanks (started by MSE towers!) here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6374618/money-moral-dilemma-should-someone-who-earns-a-decent-wage-use-food-banks/p1

Oh dear.

I'm struggling to see the case where warmbanks would be exploited by those overspending on non-essentials. Spending several hours in a shared space to get out of the cold at home is extreme moneysaving to be sure.

zagfles

masonic said:

zagfles said:

masonic said:

Daliah said:

Yes, I know we also have pensioners in the higher rate tax band. I am one of them. It doesn't mean I am happy that we have people living in poverty in the UK, and people needing to go to foodbanks and claim UC even if they have jobs. No doubt someone will come along and remind us that foodbanks are rather uplifting, and that typical foodbank users just have a cashflow problem.

It will be interesting to see what is said of the users of the 'warmbanks' that are now being set up for the winter.

Interesting discussion on foodbanks (started by MSE towers!) here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6374618/money-moral-dilemma-should-someone-who-earns-a-decent-wage-use-food-banks/p1

Oh dear.

I'm struggling to see the case where warmbanks would be exploited by those overspending on non-essentials. Spending several hours in a shared space to get out of the cold at home is extreme moneysaving to be sure.

Sorry quoted the wrong post, it was nothing to do with 'warmbanks', it was foodbanks.

Warmbanks are a great money saving idea, and even if used by those who don't "need" them it's unlikely to do much harm - adds another 37 degree body! But you'd have to wonder about what it'd do to the spread of flu or COVID etc.