Understanding disparity around us

Millyonare

Linton said:

Millyonare said:

UK today in 2022 has full employment, record household disposable income, and the 11th highest level of net wealth on planet Earth.

Yes, but it is spread very unevenly.  That is the problem.  There are plenty of people with the means to live comfortably for the rest of their lives without working and others who have very much a hand to mouth existance.

Of course. But that is the same as pretty much every major economy on planet Earth -- and has been for thousands of years. It is a normal Gaussian distribution. Roughly, 10% are rich, 10% are poor, and the other 80% cluster in the middle of the bell curve. Twas ever thus.

Yes, the UK could do with a tweak here or there, to stimulate growth. For example, halve taxes in ultra-poor regions, like Northern Ireland. But, on the whole, almost everyone in the UK today who wants one has a job, average household disposable income is at a record high, and there is plenty of paper and real wealth floating around. The UK is not as bad as we think.

zagfles

RG2015 said:

Daliah said:

Isn't it amazing that so many people have plenty of income and/or assets but very little if not no apparent compassion. Sure, there are benefit scroungers, just like there are tax evaders and other criminals. Everyone has the opportunity to report such scoundrels, and we have enough authorities that can deal with them.

Most of the people living in poverty in the UK - even if it's 'merely' relative poverty - find it impossible to get out of it, and it's not for want of trying. Brushing their plight away on the grounds that there are even poorer people in other countries is quite shocking.

I am not sure, though, whether this complex subject is really suitable for the Savings and Investment board.

The OP is talking about understanding the disparity.

People on this board are discussing saving and investing surplus cash. Compare this with people in this country who are struggling to make ends meet.

The word poverty is being used to describe the plight of people in the UK and also people in poorer parts of the world. The word means two different things making it relative.

I agree with the OP. This is absolutely the right place for their post. 

Indeed. I think the main problem is that the "people who struggle to make ends meet" are not necessarily the same people defined as being "in poverty". There's probably not even a vast overlap. There are lots of reasons people struggle to make end meet, and to assume it's all people "in poverty" means you ignore all the other people who struggle, and you provide no solution for them.

Stuff like financial management, understanding loans, interest, credit cards, getting good value on stuff like mobiles, food/clothes shopping etc. Pensions and savings too, save when you can, having a decent emergency fund for a rainy day as we'll probably all have this winter will be a massive cushion.

IME whether you struggle financially or not is far more about spending habits and financial management than income level.

Lastonestanding

I was reading today, over the last decade drug deaths have increased by over 50%, those are the types of issues we should be addressing, not giving the poor more money.
You would get the opposite reaction if you posted this thread on Facebook.

Albermarle

Many kids I know are vegetarians, they manage perfectly fine. My kids went veggie at uni, 

One of mine went veggie at Uni, but they certainly were not that keen when they were three !

Also I think most of the people we are talking about have never been to Uni, and their offspring probably never will either and probably being veggie is totally off their radar in the social environment they live in. 

RG2015

zagfles said:

RG2015 said:

Daliah said:

Isn't it amazing that so many people have plenty of income and/or assets but very little if not no apparent compassion. Sure, there are benefit scroungers, just like there are tax evaders and other criminals. Everyone has the opportunity to report such scoundrels, and we have enough authorities that can deal with them.

Most of the people living in poverty in the UK - even if it's 'merely' relative poverty - find it impossible to get out of it, and it's not for want of trying. Brushing their plight away on the grounds that there are even poorer people in other countries is quite shocking.

I am not sure, though, whether this complex subject is really suitable for the Savings and Investment board.

The OP is talking about understanding the disparity.

People on this board are discussing saving and investing surplus cash. Compare this with people in this country who are struggling to make ends meet.

The word poverty is being used to describe the plight of people in the UK and also people in poorer parts of the world. The word means two different things making it relative.

I agree with the OP. This is absolutely the right place for their post. 

Indeed. I think the main problem is that the "people who struggle to make ends meet" are not necessarily the same people defined as being "in poverty". There's probably not even a vast overlap. There are lots of reasons people struggle to make end meet, and to assume it's all people "in poverty" means you ignore all the other people who struggle, and you provide no solution for them.

Stuff like financial management, understanding loans, interest, credit cards, getting good value on stuff like mobiles, food/clothes shopping etc. Pensions and savings too, save when you can, having a decent emergency fund for a rainy day as we'll probably all have this winter will be a massive cushion.

IME whether you struggle financially or not is far more about spending habits and financial management than income level.

If people are in poverty then by definition they will be struggling to make ends meet. Conversely, not everyone struggling to make ends meet will be in poverty, by any definition.

However, this is not about semantics. It is about people in need and how best to help them.

It is likely that many of those with surplus cash have earned it. Most would be happy to help support the less well off via taxes.

The problem is how to make sure help goes to the genuinely needy.

zagfles

Albermarle said:

Many kids I know are vegetarians, they manage perfectly fine. My kids went veggie at uni, 

One of mine went veggie at Uni, but they certainly were not that keen when they were three !

Also I think most of the people we are talking about have never been to Uni, and their offspring probably never will either and probably being veggie is totally off their radar in the social environment they live in. 

My DD hated meat when she was 3 !! I did too, my mum used to have to disguise it or mix it well with other stuff

Also if it's "off their radar", maybe the solution is to put it "on their radar"!

zagfles

RG2015 said:

zagfles said:

RG2015 said:

Daliah said:

Isn't it amazing that so many people have plenty of income and/or assets but very little if not no apparent compassion. Sure, there are benefit scroungers, just like there are tax evaders and other criminals. Everyone has the opportunity to report such scoundrels, and we have enough authorities that can deal with them.

Most of the people living in poverty in the UK - even if it's 'merely' relative poverty - find it impossible to get out of it, and it's not for want of trying. Brushing their plight away on the grounds that there are even poorer people in other countries is quite shocking.

I am not sure, though, whether this complex subject is really suitable for the Savings and Investment board.

The OP is talking about understanding the disparity.

People on this board are discussing saving and investing surplus cash. Compare this with people in this country who are struggling to make ends meet.

The word poverty is being used to describe the plight of people in the UK and also people in poorer parts of the world. The word means two different things making it relative.

I agree with the OP. This is absolutely the right place for their post. 

Indeed. I think the main problem is that the "people who struggle to make ends meet" are not necessarily the same people defined as being "in poverty". There's probably not even a vast overlap. There are lots of reasons people struggle to make end meet, and to assume it's all people "in poverty" means you ignore all the other people who struggle, and you provide no solution for them.

Stuff like financial management, understanding loans, interest, credit cards, getting good value on stuff like mobiles, food/clothes shopping etc. Pensions and savings too, save when you can, having a decent emergency fund for a rainy day as we'll probably all have this winter will be a massive cushion.

IME whether you struggle financially or not is far more about spending habits and financial management than income level.

If people are in poverty then by definition they will be struggling to make ends meet.

No they aren't. That's the point. The "in poverty" definition just uses equivalised relative income measures. Not measures of affordability. Sea Shell and her OH (sorry to use you as an example again ) live on well under the poverty line. She doesn't struggle to make end meet.

Conversely, not everyone struggling to make ends meet will be in poverty, by any definition.

However, this is not about semantics. It is about people in need and how best to help them.

It is likely that many of those with surplus cash have earned it. Most would be happy to help support the less well off via taxes.

The problem is how to make sure help goes to the genuinely needy.

They already do, and the amount has increased massively over the last few decades.

See https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/public-spending-statistics-release-may-2022/public-spending-statistics-may-2022 and in particular chart 2, and bear in mind it's in real terms. Spending on "social protection" (basically benefits) up from about £190 billion in 1997 to about £300 billion in 2021 in real terms! Far more than health, education, defence etc.

masonic

zagfles said:

RG2015 said:

zagfles said:

RG2015 said:

Daliah said:

Isn't it amazing that so many people have plenty of income and/or assets but very little if not no apparent compassion. Sure, there are benefit scroungers, just like there are tax evaders and other criminals. Everyone has the opportunity to report such scoundrels, and we have enough authorities that can deal with them.

Most of the people living in poverty in the UK - even if it's 'merely' relative poverty - find it impossible to get out of it, and it's not for want of trying. Brushing their plight away on the grounds that there are even poorer people in other countries is quite shocking.

I am not sure, though, whether this complex subject is really suitable for the Savings and Investment board.

The OP is talking about understanding the disparity.

People on this board are discussing saving and investing surplus cash. Compare this with people in this country who are struggling to make ends meet.

The word poverty is being used to describe the plight of people in the UK and also people in poorer parts of the world. The word means two different things making it relative.

I agree with the OP. This is absolutely the right place for their post. 

Indeed. I think the main problem is that the "people who struggle to make ends meet" are not necessarily the same people defined as being "in poverty". There's probably not even a vast overlap. There are lots of reasons people struggle to make end meet, and to assume it's all people "in poverty" means you ignore all the other people who struggle, and you provide no solution for them.

Stuff like financial management, understanding loans, interest, credit cards, getting good value on stuff like mobiles, food/clothes shopping etc. Pensions and savings too, save when you can, having a decent emergency fund for a rainy day as we'll probably all have this winter will be a massive cushion.

IME whether you struggle financially or not is far more about spending habits and financial management than income level.

If people are in poverty then by definition they will be struggling to make ends meet.

No they aren't. That's the point. The "in poverty" definition just uses equivalised relative income measures. Not measures of affordability. Sea Shell and her OH (sorry to use you as an example again ) live on well under the poverty line. She doesn't struggle to make end meet.

It seems you are clinging to a definition of poverty that differs from that of others responding in the thread. When I say 'poverty' I mean people whose survival is insecure regardless of how they spend what money they have.

RG2015

zagfles said:

RG2015 said:

zagfles said:

RG2015 said:

Daliah said:

Isn't it amazing that so many people have plenty of income and/or assets but very little if not no apparent compassion. Sure, there are benefit scroungers, just like there are tax evaders and other criminals. Everyone has the opportunity to report such scoundrels, and we have enough authorities that can deal with them.

Most of the people living in poverty in the UK - even if it's 'merely' relative poverty - find it impossible to get out of it, and it's not for want of trying. Brushing their plight away on the grounds that there are even poorer people in other countries is quite shocking.

I am not sure, though, whether this complex subject is really suitable for the Savings and Investment board.

The OP is talking about understanding the disparity.

People on this board are discussing saving and investing surplus cash. Compare this with people in this country who are struggling to make ends meet.

The word poverty is being used to describe the plight of people in the UK and also people in poorer parts of the world. The word means two different things making it relative.

I agree with the OP. This is absolutely the right place for their post. 

Indeed. I think the main problem is that the "people who struggle to make ends meet" are not necessarily the same people defined as being "in poverty". There's probably not even a vast overlap. There are lots of reasons people struggle to make end meet, and to assume it's all people "in poverty" means you ignore all the other people who struggle, and you provide no solution for them.

Stuff like financial management, understanding loans, interest, credit cards, getting good value on stuff like mobiles, food/clothes shopping etc. Pensions and savings too, save when you can, having a decent emergency fund for a rainy day as we'll probably all have this winter will be a massive cushion.

IME whether you struggle financially or not is far more about spending habits and financial management than income level.

If people are in poverty then by definition they will be struggling to make ends meet.

No they aren't. That's the point. The "in poverty" definition just uses equivalised relative income measures. Not measures of affordability. Sea Shell and her OH (sorry to use you as an example again ) live on well under the poverty line. She doesn't struggle to make end meet.

Sorry @zagfles , I think that we are at cross purposes.

There may be a quantitative definition of poverty in the UK and elsewhere, but I am using the term qualitatively.

My reason for this is that I do not believe that a measurement can accurately describe someone's need. This is aptly demonstrated by your example of someone not in any great need but technically "in poverty". 

My definition is quite simply someone in desperate need due to their dire financial circumstance.

Daliah

Some comments get ever nastier. Not sure why it is so difficult for some to understand that plenty of those UK residents classed as living in poverty are quite simply unable to change their income. Here's another example. Take the household of a single pensioner in their late 70s or early 80s who has to get by on less than £200 a week. It was tough to pay for everything from that even before the utilities skyrocketed, and goodness knows how they will manage this winter, even with the one-off extra payments some of them will get. Pensioners aren't even the worst example for people at the bottom end of UK incomes. The fact that they have more than millions of people in poorer countries isn't an argument for why it should be ok that they need to scrimp every day.

Yes, I know we also have pensioners in the higher rate tax band. I am one of them. It doesn't mean I am happy that we have people living in poverty in the UK, and people needing to go to foodbanks and claim UC even if they have jobs. No doubt someone will come along and remind us that foodbanks are rather uplifting, and that typical foodbank users just have a cashflow problem.