Understanding disparity around us

sebtomato

solidpro said:

However I live in Milton Keynes, which is a very 'retail' rich town and if I have to go to the shopping centre on a Tuesday morning, I am absolutely staggered at the amount of people with heavy shopping bags, getting their nails done, eating in restaurants (which in my recent experience is never less than £20 per person, if you're disciplined). I also see this in other places like Bournemouth, Southampton, London...  We ate out recently - 2 adults and 2 kids in a really low-rent pub and it was £100. Same a few days later (we were trying to have a holiday which meant eating out) and it was £120. We kept saying 'thats 10 day's food shopping we just spent'!

I guess some people spent less during lockdowns, and therefore are "catching up" when it comes to retail purchases or going out or travelling.

Lots of people also buy stuff on credit (credit cards), because they can't control their spending and think that happiness comes from buying stuff. Their disposable income may have dropped but they don't care in the short term. They may also be on a fixed mortgage and haven't anticipated the upcoming increase in rates. Same for energy bills raising again in October: not many people are preparing for that.

Lots of people are not particularly smart when it comes to their finance, which makes them the perfect target for marketing.

I am in my own self-made "bubble" too. I have never spent my entire salary (regardless of what it was), always had some standard of living well below my means (including accommodation, cars), but then I am not seen in shopping centres on Saturday afternoons carrying designer bags or queueing up at the Apple store for the latest iPhone. I'd rather have the comfort of having money aside, and no financial worries.

zagfles

ZeroSum said:

zagfles said:

bostonerimus said:

I think years of New Labour and Conservative governments have destroyed public services, workers rights and many well paying jobs in the UK. I don't see anything in UK politics that will in anyway redistribute wealth or level up and I will encourage my grand niece and nephew to look beyond the UK for rewarding careers.

I think you're living on a different planet sometimes. Have you analysed how "well paid jobs" have changed over the last few decades? Do you think pay has gone up or down in real terms? Have you looked at how spending on the NHS has changed over the last few decades? NHS spending is massively higher now than a few decades ago, in real terms. Maybe look at some figures instead of reading doommongers on twitter etc.

Regarding NHS spending, when you factor in population increase & life expectancy increases, the health budget needs to increase in real terms just to stand still.

Plus more expensive new treatments etc. I'd much rather be treated by the NHS today than the NHS of the 80's. I think people tend to remember the past with rose tinted spectacles and the present through media reports which only highlight the negative. Obviosuly at the moment there are hangover issues from the pandemic

sebtomato

zagfles said:

MACKEM99 said:

zagfles said:

MACKEM99 said:

Albermarle said:

I find it vaguely amusing to see all these highly paid newsreaders and politicians, trying to make out that they are all personally worrying about the increased cost of living, along with the poor downtrodden masses.

Personally I think the stories about more people not eating etc., are isolated cases hyped up by the media as in reality the cost of living issues are only just starting to bite. By the Autumn, pretty much everything we buy will have gone up in price, sometimes more than once and then the cold weather will come and the real impact of the energy prices will be felt. Then the squeeze will really start to be felt in the lower income sections of society. Xmas might keep the tills ringing but in the dark days after that, many people will be really feeling  the pinch.

People eating less -  there are loads who could do with that these days.

Indeed - but how often do you hear the fatuous explaination (excuse the pun) that obesity is a symptom of poverty because healthy food costs more? Usually coming from journalists on £100k+ salaries who've probably never in their lives had to count the pennies while shopping. If they had, they might notice that stuff like fresh fruit, veg etc is far cheaper than stuff like crisps and chocolate bars.

carrots 40p for 1kg. Spuds 30p per pound - shall I go on?

Indeed - whereas a 25g bag of crisps, even a cheap one, is at least 30p. A pound is 453 grams, so crisps are 18 times the cost of potatoes which is the main ingredient.

I remember a trivial pursuit questions that was something like "what very expensive way to sell potatoes was invented by ????"

But then when you add cooking cost and labour, the cost difference is not 18 times, is it?

What's the point of comparing raw ingredients to finish products? I can buy 16 sheets of A3 paper for 50p, so why a newspaper cost a few pounds?

sebtomato

Daliah said:

Isn't it amazing that so many people have plenty of income and/or assets but very little if not no apparent compassion. Sure, there are benefit scroungers, just like there are tax evaders and other criminals. Everyone has the opportunity to report such scoundrels, and we have enough authorities that can deal with them.

Most of the people living in poverty in the UK - even if it's 'merely' relative poverty - find it impossible to get out of it, and it's not for want of trying. Brushing their plight away on the grounds that there are even poorer people in other countries is quite shocking.

I am not sure, though, whether this complex subject is really suitable for the Savings and Investment board.

I have no compassion for lazy people: going out/ordering take out instead of cooking themselves, taking the car instead of going for a short walk or cycling, not checking their finances, not selling stuff they don't need on eBay etc.

I know lots of people with fairly high household incomes that seem to be broke all the time, because they couldn't be bothered to check for a better mortgage when it was due for renewal, better insurance, better phone plans etc etc. They are also likely to have gym memberships they don't use, and other subscriptions not needed.

They are just lazy and prefer to watch Netflix rather than spend a few hours tidy-up their finance. Most financial companies leverage that too (e.g. insurances).

I do have compassion for hard working people that are struggling, and doing everything they can to manage their life, as opposed to being entitled.

Altior

The ludicrous energy price cap was 'invented' for those lazy people, who either couldn't bothered switching, or didn't understand tariffs (which to be fair are/were deliberately convoluted).  

MX5huggy

Altior said:

The ludicrous energy price cap was 'invented' for those lazy people, who either couldn't bothered switching, or didn't understand tariffs (which to be fair are/were deliberately convoluted).  

The market didn’t work without a price cap because suppliers separated customers into those that engaged and those that didn’t. I don’t really know how much 4 pints of milk is but because some people will change where they buy milk if the price is different, I get a fair price on the milk I buy. If Lidi could ID me as a customer that only buys milk from Lidi they could charge me whatever they like. 

Sea_Shell

Well, I'm not sure whether to be embarrassed or proud!!

I seem to have set myself up to be either a pillar of financial virtue, or to be shot down as living on another planet!!


Infamy, infamy they've all got it in for me!!


It's true, we haven't had a mortgage for over 15 years, but we don't have a roof full of solar panels 😉.  We drive a Vauxhall.

I'm not a "shopper" and we don't particularly enjoy eating out (tend to only eat out whilst on holiday) and have probably 5 takeaways a year!!

But then I didn't blink, dropping £150 for my new Garmin. 😎

Kim1965

zagfles said:

Kim1965 said:

I think disparity in the uk is huge and getting bigger. It seems the uk is no longer a land of opportunity or equal opportunity. 
 Take a child from a family on means tested benefits who wants to get on in life.. They go to uni and get saddled with a huge debt, there is no parental financial safety net. From the midlands  to the south of the country, trying to get on the property ladder without family help is a huge hurdle. They will never inherit money. 
 There will always be disparity in society, i am not sure that some contributers to this thread can grasp how difficult it could be to escape poverty. I dont think its entirely down to not being able to budget or being bothered to work, 
 Using Sea Shell as an example of someone who can live on 15/20k is amusing. She owns her own home for a start and for all I know probably has a roof full of pv panels to get her leccy bill down.
  Perhaps moving this thread to the benefits board will give a more balanced sample of opinions. 

I spent many years on the benefits board and in real life helping people with tax credits and benefits. That's why I have a reasonably good understanding of issues faced by those on low incomes. Maybe some others here who say they have compassion for those on low incomes should try doing that instead of getting sanctimonious with those who point out that there are other issues than just purely income levels, or arguing against strawmen (has anyone said it's "easy to escape poverty"?).

But SS is a good example as her spending is around or below the AHC "poverty line" for a pensioner couple, and not through necessity. So the mortgage being paid off is accounted for.

But yes the cost of buying a house is a massive issue, something I've frequently ranted on about here, and something successive govt policies have made worse. Student finance isn't an issue. If you don't get a well paid job, you'll never pay it back. If you do, it was a good investment. While at uni, the people who struggle are those from higher income households where the "hidden parental contribution", as Martin puts it, isn't being paid. Those from low income household get the full loan plus bursaries on top.

Anyway, if anyone wants to respond to points actually made rather than sanctimonious side swipes against strawmen, feel free. I'll let those arguing against strawmen continue to argue against them, I'll respond to arguments against points I raise.

Talking in riddles? 

Kim1965

Sea_Shell said:

Well, I'm not sure whether to be embarrassed or proud!!

I seem to have set myself up to be either a pillar of financial virtue, or to be shot down as living on another planet!!


Infamy, infamy they've all got it in for me!!


It's true, we haven't had a mortgage for over 15 years, but we don't have a roof full of solar panels 😉.  We drive a Vauxhall.

I'm not a "shopper" and we don't particularly enjoy eating out (tend to only eat out whilst on holiday) and have probably 5 takeaways a year!!

But then I didn't blink, dropping £150 for my new Garmin. 😎

Think you should be very proud. 

I  am just not sure that you being able to live on the poverty line equates to others. Your a home owner with more than 500 k put by. In a financial emergency you can excercise choices a person on means tested benefits with less than6 k in the bank cannot. Just thought it was a poor analogy, thats all. 
 

Altior

MX5huggy said:

Altior said:

The ludicrous energy price cap was 'invented' for those lazy people, who either couldn't bothered switching, or didn't understand tariffs (which to be fair are/were deliberately convoluted).  

The market didn’t work without a price cap because suppliers separated customers into those that engaged and those that didn’t. I don’t really know how much 4 pints of milk is but because some people will change where they buy milk if the price is different, I get a fair price on the milk I buy. If Lidi could ID me as a customer that only buys milk from Lidi they could charge me whatever they like. 

It certainly worked better without the cap than with it.

Certainly the big name companies took advantage of sticky customers, but that can go for absolutely anything. My Dad used to have be tearing my hair out as he always went for the easy option of staying with the brands he knew for everything, rather than shopping around for deals. Saving money and finance simply didn't motivate him. 

Sticky customers fund the price conscious customers like me. Or used to.

People are different, and have different priorities. Some can't be bothered going through the hassle of changing their router every 12 months, whereas I love it if I get a better deal.

This is an example of the general dumbing down of society, where everyone drops to the lowest common denominator. That's actually what led to catastrophic lockdowns.

As with many government interventions, it was half baked cakeism, and another failed policy. It tried to limit prices whilst retaining the free market. In the meantime, the regulator didn't actually regulate the important stuff, such as the liquidity and capitalisation of the challenger suppliers.