Gas provider, faulty meter, not used , provider issuing bill.

pochase

Your boiler does not seem to have a pilot light, so there should have been no usage here.

Nevertheless you have a contract with EDF to supply you gas when you switched to them, and they can charge you a standing charge as long as there is a meter on your property.

Regarding switching to another supplier there are three issues.

- you can only switch to another supplier if your debt is less than £500
- either you switch your gas supply also to the new supplier, or leave it with EDF, you cannot use a switch to disconnect yourself from paying standing charges
- the only supplier who might take on new customers except for EDF is Octopus

As you are thinking about moving I assume that you rent, there should have been visits to get gas safety certificates that your landlord needs to supply. Was there never anything said that your gas is not working?

SAC2334

sugerplum2 said:

SAC2334 said:

sugerplum2 said:

Ectophile said:

The relevant bit of the https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/45/schedule/2 Gas Act is Schedule 2, section 8, "Deemed contracts in certain cases".

Essentially, you are only a customer if you "take a supply", or if you agree a contract with a gas supplier.  Until then, you can't be a customer.

Thank you . The problem I am having is the fact that they are so corrupt. As they are claiming there has been usage on the meter, yet are also verifying no payment ever was made on to the account and as it's a card meter, no gas would of been able to be supplied without a payment. The meter was also faulty they have verified this but not when? confirmed it was not tampered with. I am unsure how it is they supposed I have used this gas they allege I have. They have and are trying to entrap me into further contracts with them, with this new meter, which ofgem state they are not allowed. The representatives who come to my home have miss lead me with disconnection costs and daily standard changes. They refuse to answer or respond to me the majority of my questions. I suffer with anxiety so it just exaggerated by this. They have tried to represent my thoughts and views without even asking what my thoughts are views are. I have been had my privacy invaded at my home, intimidated, publicly humiliated and lied to and no consideration what so ever shown as to my vulnerability. I think they are acting totally crazy, there must be no staff control, to ensure they practice in keeping with policies. I've just accepted that there is little I can do untill I get the data release a on the 15th August, to see what it is they have allowed to be released as they have already been in touch saying it's going to be filtered. I shall seek advice from Citizens advice, realise I will have to persue matter further via ombudsman and court as it's all so appalling. I am keen to highlight that more should be done to inform people that if they do not use a supply it need to be capped off or else people face being under suspicion of gas theft, as this is all what it is really about. I am still left stunned by it all as sounds crazy to me that just because you do not use a supply you get put under suspicion of such a thing. Questionable how a total non user would be deemed high on the radar for this tho . Same as single mother and child, who fall under their vulnerable category. The blatently refuse to adear to their governing body to. This says it all really . I just feel for those even more vulnerable than me out there.

I may as well bring you up to speed about usage with a prepayment meter if the meter displays "call help " or " off ". Prepayment meters can carry on supplying gas when this display happens. The old type analogue gas meters will still record usage as will the digital newer ones if the battery is nt flat 

Its one of the big fiddles with old type prepays when more times than not the meter does not shut down the valve and it remains open so it changes a prepayment meter into effectively what is an unbilled credit meter. 
When this happens occupiers are obliged in their Terms and Conditions of Supply that everyone accepts to inform the supplier the meter is faulty 

People do try to  get the meter to get this display  "call help "/ "off "or will remove the battery to see if it shuts down but still delivers full supply of gas .The valve should be closed but sometimes it stays open. Even the new gas smart meters will do this when the batteries flat sometimes. 

What is more important to you is how much usage are they claiming. ? Seeing as you don `t have a start reading from them and have not got the reading from the meter when they removed it , it sounds like you are in their hands regarding the truth.

So have you asked them exactly how much usage are they claiming ? How many metric units used ? this converts to kwh s by multiplying by 11.2 to reach gas kwh s then you can work out how much they think you owe in back billing .

This is the sort of information that Citizens Advice won t know about .They are volunteers and maybe have not got inside information like this which stays private within the industry so as not to promote meter tampers .

I am not implying that you have engaged in meter tampering or have actually used large ammounts of unbilled gas , but just letting you know what can happen with a prepayment meter even if it says £0 credit on the meter .
I m surprised that they have nt let you know what their re billing amount is sooner as it must be  very worrying to you. 
There will be defintely no courts involved with this which in my view is a minor problem compared to what I ve seen .
I know of meters where its been tampered for years and they have simply rebilled the amount , mostly up to £5000 but one I found was rebilled £9000 .
Occupiers usually then move out and away from the large gas debt 

Thank you for this ,as I have been left petrified all weekend to point I have barely been able to sleep,as been so concerned of the vulnerability of being forced now with this new meter within my home. I have even started looking to move and places to stay. As 100% know I have not used that meter and been concerned that by having this new meter in my home just leaves me open to further aligations. If this is the case,then surely within their investigations they should of had a duty to checked if there was a supply of gas, before they removed the meter. I am they type that person the only way I knew it would of needed topping up, is because nothing was working as just unwell most of time. I only have a gas boiler everything else is electric. The boiler is a worcester geenstar 28i junior. They could not test it at first with the new meter as there was was turned off by a switch down stairs. I have tried to look the boiler up to see if there is a pilot light like you said,but have no idea, I not managed to be able to find that information unfortunately. I will write to the company to ask them. They can evidence my knowledge of boiler as very very limited as I keep saying and worrying that the battery was flat on the little box on the wall. They had to tell me that this would not effect the water heating. Am I free to go to another supplier if I disconnect? Can they stop me ? Thanks I do really appreciate all this information as it really does help as they are not really releasing any thing I ask for. They actioned the data release as have to, as I asked for everything, I could think of, they were quick to respond and say they not going to release it all. I have thought that I know I told somebody about the card not working and meter and could get a statement wrote up for court or as if they would appear as a witness. We no longer really bother as they moved away out of the area but it maybe worth asking. I am going to phone the old supplier to see what reading was given to them as I am sure I would of had to of given a reading to them. When a switch over happens does the meter get cleared of the old reading from the old supplier ? Is this something they are able to do online ? The usage has to be from when the meter was in use and under the old supplier, unless this boiler does have a gas light light like you are saying. I have been trying to wrack my brain what else could it possibly be but there is only that as I have nothing else gas. They have confirmed the meter was not tampered with, so doesn't this mean it could not of been leaking at all to?I need to question, if I have some kind of leak in pipes or something somewhere. As not sure what e ok see it could possibly be. They have to prove tho without reasonable doubt that there has been usage and this usage has been whilst with them.

Gas prepayment meters record the total reading from when the meter was installed and they always started at 99998 or 99999 ( so the system would use some gas when first purged ) .  This reading would be on screen " G " total units  used since it was installed . 

If the occupier switched supplier then it started registering units also  used with the new supplier on screen "H " as well as screen G . some suppliers wanted reading from screen H reading but mainly they requested screen G total units used. If my memory is correct EDF wanted screen G readings 

So there is another question they must answer " what was the reading on Screen H when they took away the meter " 
This reading would show how many units used from when you joined EDF.. This is the reading you want 
 if they cannot supply that reading on screen H then they have no case to answer about usage as they can t prove any usage is from EDF. in this case screen H is the most important reading to find out from them 
  .Its very important this question as screen G reading is nt much use as it dates back to when it was first installed which could have been as long as 20 years ago for the older analogue type gas meters around back then.
Maybe  Citizens Advice advisors  would not  know this so keep it in mind when you visit C .A. B . 

Your point about the meter showing £0 vended so therefore no usage is correct but as I have said a lot of the time the valve shuts off and remains open and allows full usage of gas without ever having to top up. Many people accept this and carry on using the gas thinking everything is fine  . EDIT if this happens suppliers do not consider this as theft of gas as the meter itself was faulty to allow this .
 I would find a lot of these with old prepay meters and would not get my £10 bonus for finding a gas fiddle unless they had deliberately taken the battery out . 

[Deleted User]

sugerplum2 said:

QrizB said:

sugerplum2 said:

The boiler is a worcester geenstar 28i junior. ... I have tried to look the boiler up to see if there is a pilot light like you said,but have no idea

There's no pilot light in one of those boilers. It's a relatively modern combi boiler, manufactured between (it seems) 2006 and 2016, and a much cheaper source of heat & hot water than electricity would be.

General details here: https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/productinfo/worcester-bosch/greenstar-28i-junior

User instructions here: https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/professional/support/literature/greenstar-i-junior-combi-operating-instructions

Oh thank you. I hunted for that information but could not find it, I shall include this in my file to the ombudsman. No Ii realise gas is cheaper I just feel suck . I have looked at more energy efficient methods like solar panel ECT but I am struggling to get knowledgeable enough to understand it all

With respect, you have no idea how The Energy Ombudsman works? You cannot just send them a file of ‘odds and ends’ based on information provided by posters on this website. You have to escalate the original complaint made to the supplier and nothing else. The Energy Ombudsman will review just your complaint and the case file provided by the supplier. It doesn’t carry out any form of investigation.

If The Energy Ombudsman rules in the supplier’s failure, you have the right to ACCEPT or REJECT The Energy Ombudsman’s Decision. If you REJECT the Decision, then the complaint against the supplier is effectively closed. HOWEVER, the supplier can still use the Decision in support of any court claim that it might bring against you. It follows that you need to think through very carefully whether you should take your complaint to The Energy Ombudsman.

If you decide to take the supplier to Court, then you must have a demonstrable claim. The Court is not going to get into detailed considerations about who said what to whom, and it is not going to adjudicate on rights of entry etc. If you want to go down this route, you need something more substantial than a simple money claim through the Small Claims Court. You need advice from a legally-qualified person as to the route that you should follow not advice from well-meaning posters on this forum.

sugerplum2

Thank you .I will do this now. You have been so much help, thank you for taking that time as I really do appreciate it. As would of never of known to seek access of any of this. This is something I will also take up with the ombudsman and judge at court , as more needs to be done to make them explained their practices and processes to people. To put them in a better position to understand. Every photograph of every screen he took, should really of been done , with me there being told what the screen was and why the image was being taken. The finding on each screen should of been explained to me. I too should of been offered the opportunity to also of taken not of those finding and take a photograph too. They should then get the customer to sign saying this has been done. All to make sure the customer is keep in a totally informed position as can be at all time ,to help aliviate stress and worry or further distress. If I can is the basis of the time I've had now just speaking to you with it, identified this, i questioned why they have not , and why is this not in their policies to do so. With the valve shut off, again they had their opportunity to explore the possibilities of this, firstly before removal of the meter. They choose not to do this or include it as a requirement of their investigations . Therefore they can not be expected to then come back with such alligations. They never explained to me, this could be a possibility, to then allow me the right to be able to assess if this was the case also. I can not then be made responsible for something I didn't know I need to insist was done, they should of done it. After all they were that sure,I was stealing gas that the insistent on breaking entry, before and during I was trying to seek a phone call to to EDF. So sure they should of checked if I actually had an active supply here or not, before removing the meter. Honestly I think they just trying it on and think they know that meter was not used. They are just so one mind focused that I have been stealing gas they are. They have rushed this paper work out to prevent me asking questions and I had started highlighting how costly it was becoming to mine and my daughter's like . As last week was set aside to be able to celebrate all her numberouse achievements, she's made this year, but because they would not release their report,I we could not responsibly assess our financial position moving forward,to be able to do so and we only had last week to celebrate as there was a time limit to what we had planned. Plus I was insisting on removal of the meter. The document was that rushed together, there are major errors in it. Their trying to play on the words they are, saying as I have said" I have never used the meter ", trying to act stupid to the fact that , what I obviously actually mean is that" I have never used the meter under them" . It's just trick tackics. Let them play those with the ombudsman As they have all the paper work. I bet you they will not come forward with screen H as 100% I not used anything so I be suprised if they got a reading. They been here seen how vulnerable I am first hand, know I am at the moment working on a flight or fright energy drive with it all and know the stress and flustraision of it all will get the better of me in the end and that I will get ill of it all and their problem will go away as they have entrapped me. Their hoping out annoyance and flustraision of it all, I will straight up and action the ombudsman, ill equiped, as this is how they are purposefully tying to keep me. This is what most people would do. I know better as had to deal with Ombudsman before and know you only get one chance. If you raise a complaint and don't submit the evidence on time, they investigate without your input. It's crazy, I only phoned up to see how I stood once with a position, they ombudsman, went straight to work , give me deadlines to submit stuff n I was actually away from home at time . He investigated and shut the case in the other parties favour and had not even accurately got the greivance correct that I had. Another shocking insident in my life, as nothing you can do then,that's the final say, I could not believe it. Citizens advice told me on phone Friday sorry we due to close,I will book you in tho first thing Monday morning for a call back, not a stich. Job center appointment went better tho so at least, I finally start getting some kind of money coming in at last. The guy was quite help full and give me a few number for help, so will see. Thanks again it's been all so helpful. Still shocked that I have had all this because I been picked up as a non user tho ! Shocking !

The_Fat_Controller

@sugarplum2 PLEASE use some paragraphs !

sugerplum2

[Deleted User] said:

sugerplum2 said:

QrizB said:

sugerplum2 said:

The boiler is a worcester geenstar 28i junior. ... I have tried to look the boiler up to see if there is a pilot light like you said,but have no idea

There's no pilot light in one of those boilers. It's a relatively modern combi boiler, manufactured between (it seems) 2006 and 2016, and a much cheaper source of heat & hot water than electricity would be.

General details here: https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/productinfo/worcester-bosch/greenstar-28i-junior

User instructions here: https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/professional/support/literature/greenstar-i-junior-combi-operating-instructions

Oh thank you. I hunted for that information but could not find it, I shall include this in my file to the ombudsman. No Ii realise gas is cheaper I just feel suck . I have looked at more energy efficient methods like solar panel ECT but I am struggling to get knowledgeable enough to understand it all

With respect, you have no idea how The Energy Ombudsman works? You cannot just send them a file of ‘odds and ends’ based on information provided by posters on this website. You have to escalate the original complaint made to the supplier and nothing else. The Energy Ombudsman will review just your complaint and the case file provided by the supplier. It doesn’t carry out any form of investigation.

If The Energy Ombudsman rules in the supplier’s failure, you have the right to ACCEPT or REJECT The Energy Ombudsman’s Decision. If you REJECT the Decision, then the complaint against the supplier is effectively closed. HOWEVER, the supplier can still use the Decision in support of any court claim that it might bring against you. It follows that you need to think through very carefully whether you should take your complaint to The Energy Ombudsman.

If you decide to take the supplier to Court, then you must have a demonstrable claim. The Court is not going to get into detailed considerations about who said what to whom, and it is not going to adjudicate on rights of entry etc. If you want to go down this route, you need something more substantial than a simple money claim through the Small Claims Court. You need advice from a legally-qualified person as to the route that you should follow not advice from well-meaning posters on this forum.

Thank you. I totally know and agree that I do not understand fully . I am actually dyslexic and strongly struggle with these kinds of thing as is obvious to see. I am also stressed out my mind too. My reasoning for sending in information to the boiler, is as evidence so as to clarify any questioning as to weather or not my boiler may of been occuring usage un to my knowledge. For the usage I am being accused of having used that I dispute I have not. It's a valid bit of evidence to my case,that does require acknowledgment of. So I am not just sending odds and bods of stuff it dose have a valid purpose. I have recordings of the Warrent execution also as my evidence as to how poorly the matter was dealt with. They have deadlocked my case, to prevent me from gathering more evidence. Their simply now ignoring me and I predict will do so now untill I get a 3rd party involved . Is this right tho of them to be doing? They have presented me with statement ,which includes information that has been released to me for the first time. I have questions in regards to that ,that I seek answers to ? Am I not allowed that right to have those answered.

sugerplum2

The_Fat_Controller said:

@sugarplum2 PLEASE use some paragraphs !

I only wish I could, honestly, the way it is posting, is not at all how I am writing it . I have no idea why it is doing this ..as know I can be long winded in writing at the best of times, it is something to which when not so stressed I do try to work upon .

markin

Have you checked the new meter, It would be good to know that you don't have a tiny leak anywhere, Or if the debt has been put on it.

And I would still like to know your electric usage. And do you use Electric to heat water only as you need it or leave the immersion on 24/7. Or just use an electric shower and kettle/dishwasher.

sugerplum2

[Deleted User] said:

sugerplum2 said:

QrizB said:

sugerplum2 said:

The boiler is a worcester geenstar 28i junior. ... I have tried to look the boiler up to see if there is a pilot light like you said,but have no idea

There's no pilot light in one of those boilers. It's a relatively modern combi boiler, manufactured between (it seems) 2006 and 2016, and a much cheaper source of heat & hot water than electricity would be.

General details here: https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/productinfo/worcester-bosch/greenstar-28i-junior

User instructions here: https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/professional/support/literature/greenstar-i-junior-combi-operating-instructions

Oh thank you. I hunted for that information but could not find it, I shall include this in my file to the ombudsman. No Ii realise gas is cheaper I just feel suck . I have looked at more energy efficient methods like solar panel ECT but I am struggling to get knowledgeable enough to understand it all

With respect, you have no idea how The Energy Ombudsman works? You cannot just send them a file of ‘odds and ends’ based on information provided by posters on this website. You have to escalate the original complaint made to the supplier and nothing else. The Energy Ombudsman will review just your complaint and the case file provided by the supplier. It doesn’t carry out any form of investigation.

If The Energy Ombudsman rules in the supplier’s failure, you have the right to ACCEPT or REJECT The Energy Ombudsman’s Decision. If you REJECT the Decision, then the complaint against the supplier is effectively closed. HOWEVER, the supplier can still use the Decision in support of any court claim that it might bring against you. It follows that you need to think through very carefully whether you should take your complaint to The Energy Ombudsman.

If you decide to take the supplier to Court, then you must have a demonstrable claim. The Court is not going to get into detailed considerations about who said what to whom, and it is not going to adjudicate on rights of entry etc. If you want to go down this route, you need something more substantial than a simple money claim through the Small Claims Court. You need advice from a legally-qualified person as to the route that you should follow not advice from well-meaning posters on this forum.

I need to try to delve, explore and investigate, to get to the bottom of what has happened here firstly. To be in as good as possible positioning, knowledgeable wise inorder to be in any kind of position to be able to proceed forward. They know this and are refusing to acknowledge now, let alone answer my questions. That's up to them, as long as I can evidence I have tired and asked them the questions I need to ,to be able to investigated the matters openly and fairly then I am showing and doing all I can. If they choose to be obstructive in that process ,then it is being noted and can be evidenced. I have several, things going on her that need highlighting. Doing so will make me ill, very ill I expect. however I feel there is a need form me to use my dealing to highlight those ill practices. I am willing to take the hit of being made unwell inorder to do so, not for me tho, not in the pretext of any rembusment for all I have been subjected to, or the time spent having now to persue matter. I do so for all those other people out there who are even more vulnerable that me, who simply can not ! As identified to EDF it is these types of matter to which push people over the edge,to such a point that they feel there is no longer any hope and they take their own lives. Maybe just maybe, me doing so, may push change and save some poor helpless lost person out their life .

sugerplum2

markin said:

Have you checked the new meter, It would be good to know that you don't have a tiny leak anywhere, Or if the debt has been put on it.

And I would still like to know your electric usage. And do you use Electric to heat water only as you need it or leave the immersion on 24/7. Or just use an electric shower and kettle/dishwasher.

I am so glad you have highlighted I need to check this new meter. I need to photograph all the screens asap. To check that it's all as it should be. Then now monitor the usage. Thanks . I use electric. To be honest when I feel in a well state, I do keep trying to look and understand more ,alternative methods of heating such as solar panels and stuff. I just struggle understanding it all I do, I have even considered going in on course to be able to learn more about it to see if it is feasible to turn over to this. Last time I had a look I was trying to understand the pump system,but it does require a lot of renovation as you have to excavate right down and I do not have easy access to do so to the garden. I wouldn't mind a small caravan solar panel system like people use in a caravan. Then there's wind turbines, if my life was more stress free then I would research it more and go the best way I find. Things are extremely hard now but will not be like this forever. I know this ,so there is hope .. I have just had loads and loads of very difficult things to deal with and they make me ill. Like I have a legal negligence case to try to gather together from a previous case, to do with my parents and stuff. I have so many thing weighing heavily over me, that it makes me ill and unable to cope in my own life. Morally, I have to persue these matters out of principle and seek justice for other parties. So i just have to find a way to be come stronger to get me through it all. I've even considered having to study law.