Gas provider, faulty meter, not used , provider issuing bill.

MWT

pochase said:

I would say if you switch suppliers you have agreed to a contract, so deemed would not apply here.

 The suppler had just been changed and I had not even used a single unit of gas ,cause of the issue, so thought I not been able to use anything, so therefore not been supplied anything. 

This bit is correct, you can only seek to avoid the standing charge if you are on a deemed contract and have not used any gas, when you switch suppliers you are never on a deemed contract at any point so there is no ability to avoid the standing charge by not using gas.

All of this is a bit of a distraction though, talk to the CAB and get things reviewed by them and see if they can help with a new perspective. 

sugerplum2

MWT said:

pochase said:

I would say if you switch suppliers you have agreed to a contract, so deemed would not apply here.

 The suppler had just been changed and I had not even used a single unit of gas ,cause of the issue, so thought I not been able to use anything, so therefore not been supplied anything. 

This bit is correct, you can only seek to avoid the standing charge if you are on a deemed contract and have not used any gas, when you switch suppliers you are never on a deemed contract at any point so there is no ability to avoid the standing charge by not using gas.

All of this is a bit of a distraction though, talk to the CAB and get things reviewed by them and see if they can help with a new perspective. 

Thank you . What is a deemed contract even as I have no idea or understanding of what you mean by it ? The meter was not working my card would not register, from what I recall it beeped, I was seriously ill at the time I had suspected ovarian cancer. I had not used even a unit of gas. I have requested that to have the meter looked at by a 3rd party. I requested it back at one point as realized it was actually mine and never theirs as they never installed a meter. As I have 100% never been able to use the meter I 100% know I have not used it at all with them. Yet apparently they have found a meter reading that has shown usage. Despite doing a burns test that confirmed stale gas, the guy said he'd never smelt it like that before or something along those lines. They confirmed no interference, it was "non illegal " not tampered with. Their system shows no vents, no top up ever on the card. There was a fault on meter but they can not establish when this error occured (apparently ) They are all the facts that I have. To be honest I am considering setting up my own magic show, as let's face it, apparently unknowing to me I must obviously be some kind of miracle worker, when it just comes to gas mind. The evidence is there in back and white. Far more points to non use than use. I got a good mind to go to the police, explained I've been accused of the non payment of the use of gas, as I have been, it's an illegal offence and crime, I dispute this can you please investigate .

MWT

I really would try to pause your thoughts about this until you've spoken to the CAB tomorrow, but to answer your question...

When you first move into a property, you are considered to be on a deemed contract with the existing supplier at that property. You do not need to have agreed to anything, you are already in a contract by virtual of moving in and using energy, this is why it is called a 'deemed' contract...

So, if you do not actually use energy, such as by not using any gas, you can arrange to have the standing charge removed as long as you do it before you enter into a new contract with the supplier which you do when you give them your name and payment details, or register with them for a prepayment key...

When you switch to a different supplier you enter into a contract with that supplier by requesting a switch, so you are never in a deemed contract with that supplier, so you cannot avoid the standing charge. 

markin

You don't own the meter, the previous supplier did if they fitted it. I'm not sure the man that fitted the new meter would actually work for EDF, Its usually the DNO that fits them and owns them, The people that run and maintain the gas network.

SAC2334

sugerplum2 said:

Ectophile said:

The relevant bit of the https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/45/schedule/2 Gas Act is Schedule 2, section 8, "Deemed contracts in certain cases".

Essentially, you are only a customer if you "take a supply", or if you agree a contract with a gas supplier.  Until then, you can't be a customer.

Thank you . The problem I am having is the fact that they are so corrupt. As they are claiming there has been usage on the meter, yet are also verifying no payment ever was made on to the account and as it's a card meter, no gas would of been able to be supplied without a payment. The meter was also faulty they have verified this but not when? confirmed it was not tampered with. I am unsure how it is they supposed I have used this gas they allege I have. They have and are trying to entrap me into further contracts with them, with this new meter, which ofgem state they are not allowed. The representatives who come to my home have miss lead me with disconnection costs and daily standard changes. They refuse to answer or respond to me the majority of my questions. I suffer with anxiety so it just exaggerated by this. They have tried to represent my thoughts and views without even asking what my thoughts are views are. I have been had my privacy invaded at my home, intimidated, publicly humiliated and lied to and no consideration what so ever shown as to my vulnerability. I think they are acting totally crazy, there must be no staff control, to ensure they practice in keeping with policies. I've just accepted that there is little I can do untill I get the data release a on the 15th August, to see what it is they have allowed to be released as they have already been in touch saying it's going to be filtered. I shall seek advice from Citizens advice, realise I will have to persue matter further via ombudsman and court as it's all so appalling. I am keen to highlight that more should be done to inform people that if they do not use a supply it need to be capped off or else people face being under suspicion of gas theft, as this is all what it is really about. I am still left stunned by it all as sounds crazy to me that just because you do not use a supply you get put under suspicion of such a thing. Questionable how a total non user would be deemed high on the radar for this tho . Same as single mother and child, who fall under their vulnerable category. The blatently refuse to adear to their governing body to. This says it all really . I just feel for those even more vulnerable than me out there.

I may as well bring you up to speed about usage with a prepayment meter if the meter displays "call help " or " off ". Prepayment meters can carry on supplying gas when this display happens. The old type analogue gas meters will still record usage as will the digital newer ones if the battery is nt flat 

Its one of the big fiddles with old type prepays when more times than not the meter does not shut down the valve and it remains open so it changes a prepayment meter into effectively what is an unbilled credit meter. 
When this happens occupiers are obliged in their Terms and Conditions of Supply that everyone accepts to inform the supplier the meter is faulty 

People do try to  get the meter to get this display  "call help "/ "off "or will remove the battery to see if it shuts down but still delivers full supply of gas .The valve should be closed but sometimes it stays open. Even the new gas smart meters will do this when the batteries flat sometimes. 

What is more important to you is how much usage are they claiming. ? Seeing as you don `t have a start reading from them and have not got the reading from the meter when they removed it , it sounds like you are in their hands regarding the truth.

So have you asked them exactly how much usage are they claiming ? How many metric units used ? this converts to kwh s by multiplying by 11.2 to reach gas kwh s then you can work out how much they think you owe in back billing .

This is the sort of information that Citizens Advice won t know about .They are volunteers and maybe have not got inside information like this which stays private within the industry so as not to promote meter tampers .

I am not implying that you have engaged in meter tampering or have actually used large ammounts of unbilled gas , but just letting you know what can happen with a prepayment meter even if it says £0 credit on the meter .
I m surprised that they have nt let you know what their re billing amount is sooner as it must be  very worrying to you. 
There will be defintely no courts involved with this which in my view is a minor problem compared to what I ve seen .
I know of meters where its been tampered for years and they have simply rebilled the amount , mostly up to £5000 but one I found was rebilled £9000 .
Occupiers usually then move out and away from the large gas debt 

sugerplum2

SAC2334 said:

sugerplum2 said:

Ectophile said:

The relevant bit of the https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/45/schedule/2 Gas Act is Schedule 2, section 8, "Deemed contracts in certain cases".

Essentially, you are only a customer if you "take a supply", or if you agree a contract with a gas supplier.  Until then, you can't be a customer.

Thank you . The problem I am having is the fact that they are so corrupt. As they are claiming there has been usage on the meter, yet are also verifying no payment ever was made on to the account and as it's a card meter, no gas would of been able to be supplied without a payment. The meter was also faulty they have verified this but not when? confirmed it was not tampered with. I am unsure how it is they supposed I have used this gas they allege I have. They have and are trying to entrap me into further contracts with them, with this new meter, which ofgem state they are not allowed. The representatives who come to my home have miss lead me with disconnection costs and daily standard changes. They refuse to answer or respond to me the majority of my questions. I suffer with anxiety so it just exaggerated by this. They have tried to represent my thoughts and views without even asking what my thoughts are views are. I have been had my privacy invaded at my home, intimidated, publicly humiliated and lied to and no consideration what so ever shown as to my vulnerability. I think they are acting totally crazy, there must be no staff control, to ensure they practice in keeping with policies. I've just accepted that there is little I can do untill I get the data release a on the 15th August, to see what it is they have allowed to be released as they have already been in touch saying it's going to be filtered. I shall seek advice from Citizens advice, realise I will have to persue matter further via ombudsman and court as it's all so appalling. I am keen to highlight that more should be done to inform people that if they do not use a supply it need to be capped off or else people face being under suspicion of gas theft, as this is all what it is really about. I am still left stunned by it all as sounds crazy to me that just because you do not use a supply you get put under suspicion of such a thing. Questionable how a total non user would be deemed high on the radar for this tho . Same as single mother and child, who fall under their vulnerable category. The blatently refuse to adear to their governing body to. This says it all really . I just feel for those even more vulnerable than me out there.

I may as well bring you up to speed about usage with a prepayment meter if the meter displays "call help " or " off ". Prepayment meters can carry on supplying gas when this display happens. The old type analogue gas meters will still record usage as will the digital newer ones if the battery is nt flat 

Its one of the big fiddles with old type prepays when more times than not the meter does not shut down the valve and it remains open so it changes a prepayment meter into effectively what is an unbilled credit meter. 
When this happens occupiers are obliged in their Terms and Conditions of Supply that everyone accepts to inform the supplier the meter is faulty 

People do try to  get the meter to get this display  "call help "/ "off "or will remove the battery to see if it shuts down but still delivers full supply of gas .The valve should be closed but sometimes it stays open. Even the new gas smart meters will do this when the batteries flat sometimes. 

What is more important to you is how much usage are they claiming. ? Seeing as you don `t have a start reading from them and have not got the reading from the meter when they removed it , it sounds like you are in their hands regarding the truth.

So have you asked them exactly how much usage are they claiming ? How many metric units used ? this converts to kwh s by multiplying by 11.2 to reach gas kwh s then you can work out how much they think you owe in back billing .

This is the sort of information that Citizens Advice won t know about .They are volunteers and maybe have not got inside information like this which stays private within the industry so as not to promote meter tampers .

I am not implying that you have engaged in meter tampering or have actually used large ammounts of unbilled gas , but just letting you know what can happen with a prepayment meter even if it says £0 credit on the meter .
I m surprised that they have nt let you know what their re billing amount is sooner as it must be  very worrying to you. 
There will be defintely no courts involved with this which in my view is a minor problem compared to what I ve seen .
I know of meters where its been tampered for years and they have simply rebilled the amount , mostly up to £5000 but one I found was rebilled £9000 .
Occupiers usually then move out and away from the large gas debt 

Thank you for this ,as I have been left petrified all weekend to point I have barely been able to sleep,as been so concerned of the vulnerability of being forced now with this new meter within my home. I have even started looking to move and places to stay. As 100% know I have not used that meter and been concerned that by having this new meter in my home just leaves me open to further aligations. If this is the case,then surely within their investigations they should of had a duty to checked if there was a supply of gas, before they removed the meter. I am they type that person the only way I knew it would of needed topping up, is because nothing was working as just unwell most of time. I only have a gas boiler everything else is electric. The boiler is a worcester geenstar 28i junior. They could not test it at first with the new meter as there was was turned off by a switch down stairs. I have tried to look the boiler up to see if there is a pilot light like you said,but have no idea, I not managed to be able to find that information unfortunately. I will write to the company to ask them. They can evidence my knowledge of boiler as very very limited as I keep saying and worrying that the battery was flat on the little box on the wall. They had to tell me that this would not effect the water heating. Am I free to go to another supplier if I disconnect? Can they stop me ? Thanks I do really appreciate all this information as it really does help as they are not really releasing any thing I ask for. They actioned the data release as have to, as I asked for everything, I could think of, they were quick to respond and say they not going to release it all. I have thought that I know I told somebody about the card not working and meter and could get a statement wrote up for court or as if they would appear as a witness. We no longer really bother as they moved away out of the area but it maybe worth asking. I am going to phone the old supplier to see what reading was given to them as I am sure I would of had to of given a reading to them. When a switch over happens does the meter get cleared of the old reading from the old supplier ? Is this something they are able to do online ? The usage has to be from when the meter was in use and under the old supplier, unless this boiler does have a gas light light like you are saying. I have been trying to wrack my brain what else could it possibly be but there is only that as I have nothing else gas. They have confirmed the meter was not tampered with, so doesn't this mean it could not of been leaking at all to?I need to question, if I have some kind of leak in pipes or something somewhere. As not sure what e ok see it could possibly be. They have to prove tho without reasonable doubt that there has been usage and this usage has been whilst with them.

QrizB

sugerplum2 said:

The boiler is a worcester geenstar 28i junior. ... I have tried to look the boiler up to see if there is a pilot light like you said,but have no idea

There's no pilot light in one of those boilers. It's a relatively modern combi boiler, manufactured between (it seems) 2006 and 2016, and a much cheaper source of heat & hot water than electricity would be.

General details here: https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/productinfo/worcester-bosch/greenstar-28i-junior

User instructions here: https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/professional/support/literature/greenstar-i-junior-combi-operating-instructions

sugerplum2

victor2 said:

Good luck with Citizens Advice tomorrow @sugerplum2, hopefully they will be able to see both sides of the story and advise you accordingly. Do please let us know the outcome, as it could benefit others who are having problems dealing with their energy supplier. Take as much evidence as you can with you to Citizens Advice so that they can understand your position.

Thank you. Citizens Advice have not got back to me. I shall try again later as have an appointment to try to get benefit support for me and my child, as they stoped my claim in September/ October time and I fell really ill with COVID, have had long COVID on top. I have tried to sort the situation out, but after several phone call of trying to just get access to just my advisor, I got no where but left in flood of year and an telephone advisor putting the phone down on me ,when I asked her to raise the matters as a complaint. I have had to try to build my self back up again and lived of very little little budget. I had money aside to do repaired to all the leaks, so felt forced to live off that ,in an attempt to try to allivate further stress on my self,to try to get better to be strong enough to be able to attempt to try to battle it all. I have realise that I can not any longer go on like that and need to find better coping mechanisms

sugerplum2

QrizB said:

sugerplum2 said:

The boiler is a worcester geenstar 28i junior. ... I have tried to look the boiler up to see if there is a pilot light like you said,but have no idea

There's no pilot light in one of those boilers. It's a relatively modern combi boiler, manufactured between (it seems) 2006 and 2016, and a much cheaper source of heat & hot water than electricity would be.

General details here: https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/productinfo/worcester-bosch/greenstar-28i-junior

User instructions here: https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/professional/support/literature/greenstar-i-junior-combi-operating-instructions

Oh thank you. I hunted for that information but could not find it, I shall include this in my file to the ombudsman. No Ii realise gas is cheaper I just feel suck . I have looked at more energy efficient methods like solar panel ECT but I am struggling to get knowledgeable enough to understand it all

The_Fat_Controller

If you are not using the boiler, just how do you heat your water and home ?

A flat battery in a room thermostat will only affect heating, the boiler will fire up when you open a hot tap, it does not have a pilot light.

You will not be able to move suppliers if there is an ongoing dispute about a debt.

PLEASE use some paragraphs in your posts, that wall of text is very hard to read.