EV Discussion thread

JKenH

I have been watching Tesla Model 3 prices quite closely since I sold my Leaf and seeing sub 60k miles cars available under £30k I announced to my wife that I am thinking of buying a Tesla. This was met by “You are not!”

I thought I knew a fair bit about Model 3s but joining the Tesla Owners Club UK group in Facebook has been a real eye opener. For instance, I hadn’t realised that Teslas currently are delivered without parking sensors while demo cars have them - apparently the ultra sonic sensors have been removed pending a camera based system being developed. The level of dissatisfaction seems very high, particularly among new Tesla owners, perhaps because expectations were so high.

More surprising, however, is the polarised, toxic nature of discussion with a few “experienced” regulars being rude to any one expressing dissenting views or - you can imagine the sort of comments reports of queueing and poor winter range have generated. To be fair a few individuals are going to the rescue of new users but it isn’t a welcoming place. 

silvercar

JKenH said:

I have been watching Tesla Model 3 prices quite closely since I sold my Leaf and seeing sub 60k miles cars available under £30k I announced to my wife that I am thinking of buying a Tesla. This was met by “You are not!”

I thought I knew a fair bit about Model 3s but joining the Tesla Owners Club UK group in Facebook has been a real eye opener. For instance, I hadn’t realised that Teslas currently are delivered without parking sensors while demo cars have them - apparently the ultra sonic sensors have been removed pending a camera based system being developed. The level of dissatisfaction seems very high, particularly among new Tesla owners, perhaps because expectations were so high.

More surprising, however, is the polarised, toxic nature of discussion with a few “experienced” regulars being rude to any one expressing dissenting views or - you can imagine the sort of comments reports of queueing and poor winter range have generated. To be fair a few individuals are going to the rescue of new users but it isn’t a welcoming place. 

It is a bit odd to not buy a car primarily because you don't like the attitude of some vocal people in a Facebook group!

JKenH

silvercar said:

JKenH said:

I have been watching Tesla Model 3 prices quite closely since I sold my Leaf and seeing sub 60k miles cars available under £30k I announced to my wife that I am thinking of buying a Tesla. This was met by “You are not!”

I thought I knew a fair bit about Model 3s but joining the Tesla Owners Club UK group in Facebook has been a real eye opener. For instance, I hadn’t realised that Teslas currently are delivered without parking sensors while demo cars have them - apparently the ultra sonic sensors have been removed pending a camera based system being developed. The level of dissatisfaction seems very high, particularly among new Tesla owners, perhaps because expectations were so high.

More surprising, however, is the polarised, toxic nature of discussion with a few “experienced” regulars being rude to any one expressing dissenting views or - you can imagine the sort of comments reports of queueing and poor winter range have generated. To be fair a few individuals are going to the rescue of new users but it isn’t a welcoming place. 

It is a bit odd to not buy a car primarily because you don't like the attitude of some vocal people in a Facebook group!

It would be if one were to do that. I am used to a bit of online abuse so it wouldn’t worry me but as I say it’s not exactly welcoming to those with genuine concerns. Good to see that on this occasion (new user expressing concern at lack of rear parking sensors) Admin stepped in and closed the discussion down. 

I found the Nissan Leaf Facebook group to be less aggressive. 

1961Nick

JKenH said:

I have been watching Tesla Model 3 prices quite closely since I sold my Leaf and seeing sub 60k miles cars available under £30k I announced to my wife that I am thinking of buying a Tesla. This was met by “You are not!”

I thought I knew a fair bit about Model 3s but joining the Tesla Owners Club UK group in Facebook has been a real eye opener. For instance, I hadn’t realised that Teslas currently are delivered without parking sensors while demo cars have them - apparently the ultra sonic sensors have been removed pending a camera based system being developed. The level of dissatisfaction seems very high, particularly among new Tesla owners, perhaps because expectations were so high.

More surprising, however, is the polarised, toxic nature of discussion with a few “experienced” regulars being rude to any one expressing dissenting views or - you can imagine the sort of comments reports of queueing and poor winter range have generated. To be fair a few individuals are going to the rescue of new users but it isn’t a welcoming place. 

I wouldn't be surprised if parking sensors are reinstated. Tesla engineers live in Texas & California & probably don't realise that the rear camera is obscured by road grime 90% of the time during a European winter. The B pillar cameras are also frequently misted up rendering them useless as well. That leaves you with the front windscreen camera & the rear facing cameras in the wings which aren't enough to accurately manoeuvre the car. You can of course stick your head out of the door but that sets of an unpleasant cacophony of warning alarms. The final solution is to use your wife as a banksman (or should that be banksperson? ).

Tbh, Tesla are taking the removal of physical controls too far & have reached the point where it could affect my decision to buy another one. Moving the drive selector stalk to the touchscreen or fitting the joke steering wheel could see me driving an EV6 at the next change.

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

I have been watching Tesla Model 3 prices quite closely since I sold my Leaf and seeing sub 60k miles cars available under £30k I announced to my wife that I am thinking of buying a Tesla. This was met by “You are not!”

My wife gave a similar reaction after I saw lower mileage TM3LRs coming in at around the £35k mark:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202212312864291
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202212162563603
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202212312864175

That thing with the parking sensors being omitted is absurd.

Out of interest, does anyone know where the back-ground is used in the adverts?  There are other dealers taking their pics in the same place:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202212162577745

1961Nick

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

I have been watching Tesla Model 3 prices quite closely since I sold my Leaf and seeing sub 60k miles cars available under £30k I announced to my wife that I am thinking of buying a Tesla. This was met by “You are not!”

My wife gave a similar reaction after I saw lower mileage TM3LRs coming in at around the £35k mark:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202212312864291
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202212162563603
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202212312864175

That thing with the parking sensors being omitted is absurd.

Out of interest, does anyone know where the back-ground is used in the adverts?  There are other dealers taking their pics in the same place:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202212162577745

There was a change to the battery during 2019 so look out for the later ones with the longer range - It may have been from 75kWh to 82kWh but it could be the same battery with less 'hidden' capacity.

The range increased again late 2020 when the heat pump replaced the resistance heater.

JKenH

Electric car demand faces hit from high prices and lack of chargers

Electrifying.com founder Ginny Buckley described the expected growth in 2023 as “impressive” but warned it will be hampered by “various headwinds in the economy and supply chain”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/electric-cars-high-prices-chargers-b2253906.html

70sbudgie

Today we got back from visiting my sister, who lives about 200miles away. We have an ICE car that we use for long journeys in addition to our EV (whose use is more aligned with being the main car). My sister and brother in law have only an EV and so we had some interesting conversations about the charging network now, in the future, the costs, what sort of improvements are required and whether they are worth it. 

My sister has done a journey to the Dordoyne in their EV which by all accounts was pretty horrendous. For two reasons - it was during that heat wave this summer and their car suffered issues with overheating and secondly, the charging infrastructure in France. Not just availability of chargers and relative locations, but also the type of connection.

The latter raised some interesting questions that I've not seen discussed on here (apologies if they have been and I've missed them). My sister and BiL have the choice to charge with either Chademo or Type 2, but the majority of the chargers in France were CCS. I had previously been under the impression that Type 2 was becoming the more dominant connection type, but am now starting to wonder if that is correct. Some research into V2x suggests that Chademo is the only connection type that has the comms to enable V2x. I have been unable to date or yet corroborate my research to know if this is still the case. Which makes me wonder about the future for the variety of charge connections.

On our journey back we stopped to fuel our children and from our parking spot had a brilliant view of both the Tesla chargers (about 10?) and the Gridserve chargers (I thought there were 4 of those, my oh thought there were 3). Although we didn't see anyone queuing for a charger, there were very few minutes when there were chargers available.  And the roads were pretty empty (journey time was at least 25% faster on the way back due to relative traffic levels). 

My BiL suggested that investment in the charging infrastructure would be a waste because we'll soon be at the point where range is sufficient that motorway service stations won't be required for charging.

I disagree, because I believe that for EV to be accepted wholly, every part of the motoring scale needs to be catered for and the vehicles with 1000 mile range would make up perhaps 20% of private vehicles. (Based on current age ranges of vehicles).

So, how does the EV charging infrastructure need to be improved? I believe that when multiple chargers were originally installed there may have been an assumption that it is unlikely that all chargers would be required to charge at full speed at the same time. Seeing the availability today, I think this is no longer the case. Faster chargers also means a higher turnover of vehicles at the charging points. I think the service station we were at could easily utilise an additional 10 fast / rapid (perhaps even ultra rapid) chargers. So say 10 more chargers @100kW. That might not seem loads, but the service station itself, or the existing chargers, are very unlikely to be supplied by distribution infrastructure that can accomodate an additional 1MW. So the cost of installing those additional chargers has suddenly jumped up a level of cost because it requires additional distribution infrastructure.

And then it comes back to the question of is it worthwhile?

Likewise, there also needs to be considerable investment into slower chargers - the sort that someone without offroad parking could plug into when getting home from work and leave charging until leaving for work again, perhaps the following day.

Anyway, our seasonal visit to family ended up providing much food for thought.

Edited for typos and grammar.

Martyn1981

Thanks, really thought provoking. With respect to your BiL, I don't think he's right. Whilst some BEV's may reach 1,000 mile range, I actually doubt it may happen, or be of any significant number. There's little point having such range since it won't get used often. Of course the contradiction to that is a poor charging network, but even so, 400+ miles is probably a limit when the cost and weight of extra batts makes it less worthwhile adding more.

If you don't drive far very often, or at all, and have home charging, then perhaps 200 miles (or less?) is a sweet spot for price and functionality?

Interesting you mention the power available at charging locations. I was watching some thoughts on this, and the very large Tesla locations, with some now in the 60+ charger region. This crossed with the V2x side for grid support, and their staggering planned storage expansion this year at their Megapack facility in Lathrop. They hope to expand production to a run rate of 40GWh by the end of this year. Put all of this together (just theoretical at this stage), and you could have large storage at SC sites, possibly able to offer grid support depending on size and demand.

I do think that rapid chargers are needed. I get that slower charging at journey's end is important, but for many (most) on long journeys, a charge is needed. Also, the more charging locations (not just chargers), allows for folk to modify their plans on the go. If you're running low, then stop a bit sooner, or vice versa. If the chargers at the next location are busy, but the one after is showing spaces. Some countries are even specifying how spread out (or not) locations should be. I think the EU is considering every 60km.

Regarding cost of chargers, I think this is where the problem is. Again, mostly rumours, but the charging chains are buying in kit from others, and there's several types available. It might be that this is another example where Tesla is ahead, as they build their own, and have dedicated production. They even now produce 'plug n play' versions (I'm being slightly tongue in cheek) where a truck transports a baseplate to the location with four chargers already built in. This may explain the vastly lower cost (if the rumours are true) of Tesla SC's.

So lots of room for all manufactures, and charging locations to improve massively ..... eventually!

silvercar

Being a relatively new EV household, we’ve learnt 2 things that make life a whole lot easier:
1. If you are charging outside the home, other than the niche slow but free chargers, charging is roughly the same price wherever you charge. The exact opposite of motorway petrol prices being the highest.
2. Range anxiety is far less if you charge the car as you would a mobile phone rather than an ICE. Our first few long journeys we would diligently plan our charges. 200 hundred mile round trip and we would charge 2/3 of the way there and the 1/3 of the way home. Now we fit our charging around our stops.  Our last 200 mile round trip, we stopped half way for a bite to eat and charged, made a call of nature stop near to destination and did a top up. Then on the reverse we stopped half way where there was a good charging station and went for a walk, that gave us enough to get home.