EV Discussion thread

michaels

Magnitio said:

Exodi said:

To the knowledgeable people in this thread (thanks in advance):

We're planning on replacing my wife's current Nissan Micra (the motivation for the change is we need a slightly bigger car as we're having a baby in January).

We're not considering a full EV (I have one) as motorway charging is extremely expensive and we want the backup for very long journeys, but would still like to take advantage of the home charger and cheap energy tariff so currently looking at PHEV's instead.

We're currently looking at the Vauxhall Grandland X, something like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202408313502668

There's also sell a petrol version which is about £2k-£3k cheaper.

Assuming we get 1.5 m/kWh from the PHEV (19.8 miles from the 13.2kWh battery) which I think is reasonable conservative, my napkin maths suggests that the breakeven from fuel cost saving would be around 3.6 years (we'd expect to own it longer than that). 

My questions are:

1) Any feedback on the Vauxhall Grandland X?
2) Do you anticipate any pitfalls selling a PHEV in the future that may be potentially 10 years old? My napkin maths could be all irrelevant if the PHEV depreciates significantly more than the ICE version.
3) Hypothetically, if the battery got down to very low SOH's, can the car still be used (albeit mostly consuming fuel)? Appreciate it would be hard to sell.
4) Any idea what the replacement cost of the battery might be?

The Grandland X shares a lot with the Peugeot 3008, which is more common but also a bit more expensive. They appear to be reasonably reliable so far. A PHEV is more complex than an ICE or EV, so there is more to go wrong and can be more challenging to diagnose/fix. It's difficult to know what battery replacement costs will be in a few years; the number of specialists willing to undertake such work is increasing rapidly and the availability of secondhand batteries will improve. Battery from accident damaged Grandland currently on ebay at £1500.

1.5 miles per kwh sounds very conservative to me as most EVs get at least 3.

Is battery replacement a thing with a PHEV? Surprised as it isn't with BEVs.

Magnitio

michaels said:

Magnitio said:

Exodi said:

To the knowledgeable people in this thread (thanks in advance):

We're planning on replacing my wife's current Nissan Micra (the motivation for the change is we need a slightly bigger car as we're having a baby in January).

We're not considering a full EV (I have one) as motorway charging is extremely expensive and we want the backup for very long journeys, but would still like to take advantage of the home charger and cheap energy tariff so currently looking at PHEV's instead.

We're currently looking at the Vauxhall Grandland X, something like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202408313502668

There's also sell a petrol version which is about £2k-£3k cheaper.

Assuming we get 1.5 m/kWh from the PHEV (19.8 miles from the 13.2kWh battery) which I think is reasonable conservative, my napkin maths suggests that the breakeven from fuel cost saving would be around 3.6 years (we'd expect to own it longer than that). 

My questions are:

1) Any feedback on the Vauxhall Grandland X?
2) Do you anticipate any pitfalls selling a PHEV in the future that may be potentially 10 years old? My napkin maths could be all irrelevant if the PHEV depreciates significantly more than the ICE version.
3) Hypothetically, if the battery got down to very low SOH's, can the car still be used (albeit mostly consuming fuel)? Appreciate it would be hard to sell.
4) Any idea what the replacement cost of the battery might be?

The Grandland X shares a lot with the Peugeot 3008, which is more common but also a bit more expensive. They appear to be reasonably reliable so far. A PHEV is more complex than an ICE or EV, so there is more to go wrong and can be more challenging to diagnose/fix. It's difficult to know what battery replacement costs will be in a few years; the number of specialists willing to undertake such work is increasing rapidly and the availability of secondhand batteries will improve. Battery from accident damaged Grandland currently on ebay at £1500.

1.5 miles per kwh sounds very conservative to me as most EVs get at least 3.

Is battery replacement a thing with a PHEV? Surprised as it isn't with BEVs.

PHEV's are rarely as efficient as pure EV's, but 1.5m/kWh does sound a bit low.

The batteries in PHEV's are relatively small and therefore can undergo many more charging cycles for the same mileage, depending on the usage pattern.

Martyn1981

Magnitio said:

michaels said:

Magnitio said:

Exodi said:

To the knowledgeable people in this thread (thanks in advance):

We're planning on replacing my wife's current Nissan Micra (the motivation for the change is we need a slightly bigger car as we're having a baby in January).

We're not considering a full EV (I have one) as motorway charging is extremely expensive and we want the backup for very long journeys, but would still like to take advantage of the home charger and cheap energy tariff so currently looking at PHEV's instead.

We're currently looking at the Vauxhall Grandland X, something like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202408313502668

There's also sell a petrol version which is about £2k-£3k cheaper.

Assuming we get 1.5 m/kWh from the PHEV (19.8 miles from the 13.2kWh battery) which I think is reasonable conservative, my napkin maths suggests that the breakeven from fuel cost saving would be around 3.6 years (we'd expect to own it longer than that). 

My questions are:

1) Any feedback on the Vauxhall Grandland X?
2) Do you anticipate any pitfalls selling a PHEV in the future that may be potentially 10 years old? My napkin maths could be all irrelevant if the PHEV depreciates significantly more than the ICE version.
3) Hypothetically, if the battery got down to very low SOH's, can the car still be used (albeit mostly consuming fuel)? Appreciate it would be hard to sell.
4) Any idea what the replacement cost of the battery might be?

The Grandland X shares a lot with the Peugeot 3008, which is more common but also a bit more expensive. They appear to be reasonably reliable so far. A PHEV is more complex than an ICE or EV, so there is more to go wrong and can be more challenging to diagnose/fix. It's difficult to know what battery replacement costs will be in a few years; the number of specialists willing to undertake such work is increasing rapidly and the availability of secondhand batteries will improve. Battery from accident damaged Grandland currently on ebay at £1500.

1.5 miles per kwh sounds very conservative to me as most EVs get at least 3.

Is battery replacement a thing with a PHEV? Surprised as it isn't with BEVs.

PHEV's are rarely as efficient as pure EV's, but 1.5m/kWh does sound a bit low.

The batteries in PHEV's are relatively small and therefore can undergo many more charging cycles for the same mileage, depending on the usage pattern.

Good points. The advert seems to suggest a leccy range of 34 miles, so that's ~2.6miles/kWh which would seem like a reasonable estimate for a largish PHEV.

But no idea what the actual range is, perhaps a 'real-life' est of ~26 miles (2miles/kWh) is safe?

Exodi

Martyn1981 said:

Magnitio said:

michaels said:

Magnitio said:

Exodi said:

To the knowledgeable people in this thread (thanks in advance):

We're planning on replacing my wife's current Nissan Micra (the motivation for the change is we need a slightly bigger car as we're having a baby in January).

We're not considering a full EV (I have one) as motorway charging is extremely expensive and we want the backup for very long journeys, but would still like to take advantage of the home charger and cheap energy tariff so currently looking at PHEV's instead.

We're currently looking at the Vauxhall Grandland X, something like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202408313502668

There's also sell a petrol version which is about £2k-£3k cheaper.

Assuming we get 1.5 m/kWh from the PHEV (19.8 miles from the 13.2kWh battery) which I think is reasonable conservative, my napkin maths suggests that the breakeven from fuel cost saving would be around 3.6 years (we'd expect to own it longer than that). 

My questions are:

1) Any feedback on the Vauxhall Grandland X?
2) Do you anticipate any pitfalls selling a PHEV in the future that may be potentially 10 years old? My napkin maths could be all irrelevant if the PHEV depreciates significantly more than the ICE version.
3) Hypothetically, if the battery got down to very low SOH's, can the car still be used (albeit mostly consuming fuel)? Appreciate it would be hard to sell.
4) Any idea what the replacement cost of the battery might be?

The Grandland X shares a lot with the Peugeot 3008, which is more common but also a bit more expensive. They appear to be reasonably reliable so far. A PHEV is more complex than an ICE or EV, so there is more to go wrong and can be more challenging to diagnose/fix. It's difficult to know what battery replacement costs will be in a few years; the number of specialists willing to undertake such work is increasing rapidly and the availability of secondhand batteries will improve. Battery from accident damaged Grandland currently on ebay at £1500.

1.5 miles per kwh sounds very conservative to me as most EVs get at least 3.

Is battery replacement a thing with a PHEV? Surprised as it isn't with BEVs.

PHEV's are rarely as efficient as pure EV's, but 1.5m/kWh does sound a bit low.

The batteries in PHEV's are relatively small and therefore can undergo many more charging cycles for the same mileage, depending on the usage pattern.

Good points. The advert seems to suggest a leccy range of 34 miles, so that's ~2.6miles/kWh which would seem like a reasonable estimate for a largish PHEV.

But no idea what the actual range is, perhaps a 'real-life' est of ~26 miles (2miles/kWh) is safe?

The estimate was based on posts from Grandland X drivers on various forums, many of whom were suggesting they get about 20 miles out of a charge (but there may be some ungenerous rounding down here and there was a lot of variance in responses which could be attributed to the time of year/temperature).

Plus the car would be maybe 4-5 years old so battery would have naturally lost ~10% capacity (probably more as  PHEVs batteries go through many more charge cycles than typical EV's).

I've updated my calculations to 1.75m/kWh but I think more than that is probably too optimistic.

Breakeven reduced to 3.5 years (assuming both cars would sell for an equal value in the future).

It's going to be a tough decision.

Reed_Richards

Netexporter said:

...The only real annoyance is the lane-keep-assist which activates a lot on rural roads where the width varies, but that seems to be common to many cars with all the safety features.

My EV start-up sequence is:

1. Press the start button
2. Select Drive 
3. Press the "B" button
4. Release the parking break
5. Press the down selector for "Eco" mode
6. Press and hold the lane-assist button for 5 seconds to turn it off

michaels

Reed_Richards said:

Netexporter said:

...The only real annoyance is the lane-keep-assist which activates a lot on rural roads where the width varies, but that seems to be common to many cars with all the safety features.

My EV start-up sequence is:

1. Press the start button
2. Select Drive 
3. Press the "B" button
4. Release the parking break
5. Press the down selector for "Eco" mode
6. Press and hold the lane-assist button for 5 seconds to turn it off

I have also turned the lane keep assist off on our Leaf (luckily it stays off).  Otherwise every time you cut the centre line on a windy road it gives you the nag along with if you change lanes on the motorway without indicating 9I know you should always do so but sometimes when the traffic is light and you are having to go from lane one to lane 3 and back to overtake a middle lane hog one can get lazy....Don't think this is an EV specific issue though!

Exiled_Tyke

Magnitio said:

michaels said:

Magnitio said:

Exodi said:

To the knowledgeable people in this thread (thanks in advance):

We're planning on replacing my wife's current Nissan Micra (the motivation for the change is we need a slightly bigger car as we're having a baby in January).

We're not considering a full EV (I have one) as motorway charging is extremely expensive and we want the backup for very long journeys, but would still like to take advantage of the home charger and cheap energy tariff so currently looking at PHEV's instead.

We're currently looking at the Vauxhall Grandland X, something like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202408313502668

There's also sell a petrol version which is about £2k-£3k cheaper.

Assuming we get 1.5 m/kWh from the PHEV (19.8 miles from the 13.2kWh battery) which I think is reasonable conservative, my napkin maths suggests that the breakeven from fuel cost saving would be around 3.6 years (we'd expect to own it longer than that). 

My questions are:

1) Any feedback on the Vauxhall Grandland X?
2) Do you anticipate any pitfalls selling a PHEV in the future that may be potentially 10 years old? My napkin maths could be all irrelevant if the PHEV depreciates significantly more than the ICE version.
3) Hypothetically, if the battery got down to very low SOH's, can the car still be used (albeit mostly consuming fuel)? Appreciate it would be hard to sell.
4) Any idea what the replacement cost of the battery might be?

The Grandland X shares a lot with the Peugeot 3008, which is more common but also a bit more expensive. They appear to be reasonably reliable so far. A PHEV is more complex than an ICE or EV, so there is more to go wrong and can be more challenging to diagnose/fix. It's difficult to know what battery replacement costs will be in a few years; the number of specialists willing to undertake such work is increasing rapidly and the availability of secondhand batteries will improve. Battery from accident damaged Grandland currently on ebay at £1500.

1.5 miles per kwh sounds very conservative to me as most EVs get at least 3.

Is battery replacement a thing with a PHEV? Surprised as it isn't with BEVs.

PHEV's are rarely as efficient as pure EV's, but 1.5m/kWh does sound a bit low.

The batteries in PHEV's are relatively small and therefore can undergo many more charging cycles for the same mileage, depending on the usage pattern.

My brick of a PHEV (admittedly from new to 15,000 miles ) achieved around 3.5 miles/kWh,   

Martyn1981

Exiled_Tyke said:

Magnitio said:

michaels said:

Magnitio said:

Exodi said:

To the knowledgeable people in this thread (thanks in advance):

We're planning on replacing my wife's current Nissan Micra (the motivation for the change is we need a slightly bigger car as we're having a baby in January).

We're not considering a full EV (I have one) as motorway charging is extremely expensive and we want the backup for very long journeys, but would still like to take advantage of the home charger and cheap energy tariff so currently looking at PHEV's instead.

We're currently looking at the Vauxhall Grandland X, something like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202408313502668

There's also sell a petrol version which is about £2k-£3k cheaper.

Assuming we get 1.5 m/kWh from the PHEV (19.8 miles from the 13.2kWh battery) which I think is reasonable conservative, my napkin maths suggests that the breakeven from fuel cost saving would be around 3.6 years (we'd expect to own it longer than that). 

My questions are:

1) Any feedback on the Vauxhall Grandland X?
2) Do you anticipate any pitfalls selling a PHEV in the future that may be potentially 10 years old? My napkin maths could be all irrelevant if the PHEV depreciates significantly more than the ICE version.
3) Hypothetically, if the battery got down to very low SOH's, can the car still be used (albeit mostly consuming fuel)? Appreciate it would be hard to sell.
4) Any idea what the replacement cost of the battery might be?

The Grandland X shares a lot with the Peugeot 3008, which is more common but also a bit more expensive. They appear to be reasonably reliable so far. A PHEV is more complex than an ICE or EV, so there is more to go wrong and can be more challenging to diagnose/fix. It's difficult to know what battery replacement costs will be in a few years; the number of specialists willing to undertake such work is increasing rapidly and the availability of secondhand batteries will improve. Battery from accident damaged Grandland currently on ebay at £1500.

1.5 miles per kwh sounds very conservative to me as most EVs get at least 3.

Is battery replacement a thing with a PHEV? Surprised as it isn't with BEVs.

PHEV's are rarely as efficient as pure EV's, but 1.5m/kWh does sound a bit low.

The batteries in PHEV's are relatively small and therefore can undergo many more charging cycles for the same mileage, depending on the usage pattern.

My brick of a PHEV (admittedly from new to 15,000 miles ) achieved around 3.5 miles/kWh,   

Damn that's good. That's about what I get ..... now that I've realised leccy is so, so cheap, I might as well press the GO pedal a bit harder. Naughty boy that I am, but in fairness, the M4 Fri, Sat and Sun was flowing well, even the middle lane was 80+ at times.

Exiled_Tyke

Martyn1981 said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

Magnitio said:

michaels said:

Magnitio said:

Exodi said:

To the knowledgeable people in this thread (thanks in advance):

We're planning on replacing my wife's current Nissan Micra (the motivation for the change is we need a slightly bigger car as we're having a baby in January).

We're not considering a full EV (I have one) as motorway charging is extremely expensive and we want the backup for very long journeys, but would still like to take advantage of the home charger and cheap energy tariff so currently looking at PHEV's instead.

We're currently looking at the Vauxhall Grandland X, something like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202408313502668

There's also sell a petrol version which is about £2k-£3k cheaper.

Assuming we get 1.5 m/kWh from the PHEV (19.8 miles from the 13.2kWh battery) which I think is reasonable conservative, my napkin maths suggests that the breakeven from fuel cost saving would be around 3.6 years (we'd expect to own it longer than that). 

My questions are:

1) Any feedback on the Vauxhall Grandland X?
2) Do you anticipate any pitfalls selling a PHEV in the future that may be potentially 10 years old? My napkin maths could be all irrelevant if the PHEV depreciates significantly more than the ICE version.
3) Hypothetically, if the battery got down to very low SOH's, can the car still be used (albeit mostly consuming fuel)? Appreciate it would be hard to sell.
4) Any idea what the replacement cost of the battery might be?

The Grandland X shares a lot with the Peugeot 3008, which is more common but also a bit more expensive. They appear to be reasonably reliable so far. A PHEV is more complex than an ICE or EV, so there is more to go wrong and can be more challenging to diagnose/fix. It's difficult to know what battery replacement costs will be in a few years; the number of specialists willing to undertake such work is increasing rapidly and the availability of secondhand batteries will improve. Battery from accident damaged Grandland currently on ebay at £1500.

1.5 miles per kwh sounds very conservative to me as most EVs get at least 3.

Is battery replacement a thing with a PHEV? Surprised as it isn't with BEVs.

PHEV's are rarely as efficient as pure EV's, but 1.5m/kWh does sound a bit low.

The batteries in PHEV's are relatively small and therefore can undergo many more charging cycles for the same mileage, depending on the usage pattern.

My brick of a PHEV (admittedly from new to 15,000 miles ) achieved around 3.5 miles/kWh,   

Damn that's good. That's about what I get ..... now that I've realised leccy is so, so cheap, I might as well press the GO pedal a bit harder. Naughty boy that I am, but in fairness, the M4 Fri, Sat and Sun was flowing well, even the middle lane was 80+ at times.

Yeah but this was only on non-motorway, short journeys.  Anything fast and long needed the ICE so these figures were from the day to day around town driving.  Also, interesting (to me anyway) there was no noticeable difference between summer and winter figures with this car.  

Martyn1981

Small(ish) poll of ICE drivers confirms what I think we already knew, that there's a lot of disinformation out there.

Polling of petrol car drivers by YouGov for the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit (ECIU) has found a ‘poor’ level of knowledge of electric cars.

When asked if ten separate statements about EVs were true or false, more than half (57%) of petrol/diesel cars drivers got just 2 or less out of ten correct, with 90% scoring just five or less out of ten. Around a quarter (23%) got none correct.

This is affecting drivers’ car choices, with people displaying a poor understanding of EVs being less likely to want their next car to be an EV. Drivers who scored two or less out of 10 were 11 times less likely to want their next car to be an EV than those who scored eight or more out of 10 [2].

A Lords committee published a report on electric vehicles earlier in the year in which it expressed concern about a “concerted campaign of misinformation” about EVs [3]. This polling illustrates the impact of this misinformation, confusing people about the realities of EV ownership and dissuading them from making the shift to cleaner and cheaper electric driving.