EV Discussion thread

1961Nick

The Chicago Supercharger problem appears to have been caused by a number of issues... Several plugs had become frozen due to driving snow & some had fallen off their cradles in the wind. Drivers were having to put them inside their cars to thaw them out. This lead to delays which meant cars arriving with preconditioned batteries were cold by the time they made it to the Supercharger. With an ambient temperature of -20C & wind chill, heat pump equipped Teslas were close to their operational limit & were taking an excessive amount of time to heat the batteries enough to allow charging to commence. The high proportion of rwd LFP Model 3s in Chicago didn't help either as it's not a chemistry that's recommended for extreme cold conditions.

The article didn't mention that ICEVs failed to start on that day due to waxing diesel, glow plug issues & high oil viscosity. 

Martyn1981

1961Nick said:

The Chicago Supercharger problem appears to have been caused by a number of issues... Several plugs had become frozen due to driving snow & some had fallen off their cradles in the wind. Drivers were having to put them inside their cars to thaw them out. This lead to delays which meant cars arriving with preconditioned batteries were cold by the time they made it to the Supercharger. With an ambient temperature of -20C & wind chill, heat pump equipped Teslas were close to their operational limit & were taking an excessive amount of time to heat the batteries enough to allow charging to commence. The high proportion of rwd LFP Model 3s in Chicago didn't help either as it's not a chemistry that's recommended for extreme cold conditions.

The article didn't mention that ICEVs failed to start on that day due to waxing diesel, glow plug issues & high oil viscosity. 

Sounds like a bit of a mess, maybe some changes are needed to better manage the chargers in extreme conditions. Wonder if the plugs could be gently heated?

You mention the impacts on ICEV's, and QrizB mentioned Norway, so this recent article may be of interest, as the cold weather does its worst, especially when it comes to strating the cars. Looks like bad news for all, but no worse for EV's. [Also reminds me of something I saw in Sweden (BiL lives there), and learnt is used in Canada too, which is a small socket on the front of ICEV's. In cold weather you plug in a small cable, and then heat one of the engine bolts, to warm the engine block up, ready to start it in the morning.]

Electric car cold weather fears dispelled in Norway

Electric car cold weather fears were recently dispelled in Norway. 

Norway has been experiencing a cold wave since the beginning of the year, increasing the need for car recovery services. Svein Setrom from rescue service company Vikings Assistance Group noted a sharp increase in missions since 2022. 

In 2024, so far, most Viking missions relate to vehicles with battery problems or drivers having trouble starting their cars. Setrom noted that 13% of starting difficulties are linked to electric cars, while 87% are from fossil fuel vehicles. He added that 23% of the cars on Norwegian roads are EVs. 

JKenH

Is it not possible to have any discussion on EVs without someone saying there isn’t really an issue here as some ICEvs are far worse at this, that and the other or my EV only costs 2p a mile to run. It’s like the “context” qualification on Wikipedia. 

This at the moment doesn’t appear to be an EV wide issue, rather a Tesla specific issue in a certain set of circumstances that the Tesla owners involved would no doubt prefer to see not happen again. Instead the response of the EV community is to make out it isn’t really an issue (just as they have with unintended acceleration, phantom braking, removal of parking sensors etc). The message seems to be there’s nothing wrong with Teslas or Tesla charging stations - it’s the owners fault for not preconditioning their cars or the cables are getting frozen when left on the ground. Anyway more ICE cars are breaking down so it’s not a problem that needs looking at, there’s nothing here to see; now move along please your giving EVs a bad name. I am sure a lot of Tesla owners in Chicago will end up feeling like some UK postmasters did with Horizon. 

I should point out that I did not make the comparison with ICEvs - it is purely a distraction argument put forward by Tesla owners out of loyalty to the brand. Why haven’t the press picked up on ICE breakdowns? Because they are biased against EVs of course. Well not really, it’s just not very newsworthy. Joe Bloggs car won’t start as he has a flat battery. The RAC come out give him a jump start and he’s on his way again. 

On the other hand, an EV website, Teslerati, (no bias there, then) to distract from Tesla’s problems puts out a story that a breakdown service in Norway (not U.S or the Chicago area) attended more ICE breakdowns than EVs. Is that really a surprise? As most of us will have owned ICE vehicles in the past we are aware that the first cold snap brings to light any deficiencies in our 12v  car batteries. I would expect that. 12v batteries are a wear and tear item but how many of us buy a new battery before it actually causes problems? Cold weather sniffs out the weak batteries. Across the whole car fleet which might on average be 7 years old (or even older in Norway) there will be quite a few ICE cars due a new 12v battery and a cold snap is the final straw. Or some cars may have been stood for a few days, or someone may have left an interior light on. Breakdown services come out and give us a jump start and we are on our way again - and for good measure can carry on driving for 500 miles if we want without needing to stop again - although it is best we buy a new battery before it happens again. It really isn’t a big deal.

Meanwhile if you have a dead Tesla, a jump start won’t get you anywhere. It is the ride of shame on the back of a recovery truck, with everyone pointing out that’s another Tesla with a battery problem. When you finally get to the charging station you join the queue of other stranded Tesla owners, waiting for several hours until you finally get on a charger, then with their depleted battery take another couple of hours to charge their battery up to 80% which might (or might not) be good for another 100 miles driving  as you shouldn’t really go below 30% in this weather. You then (if you don’t have one at home) have to find another charger - good luck with that.

if you would prefer to have this confrontational style of discussion that’s fine by me, but instead, would it not be better to discuss any EV issue on its own merits without dragging ICE cars into it. Please. I would hope that everyone would agree but shout out now if you would like this thread to continue in this my EV is better/no my ICE car is better  style.

Netexporter

This at the moment doesn’t appear to be an EV wide issue, rather a Tesla specific issue in a certain set of circumstances that the Tesla owners involved would no doubt prefer to see not happen again.

Or it may be that many Seppos aren't aware of any other brand of EV, other than Tesla.

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

1961Nick said:

The Chicago Supercharger problem appears to have been caused by a number of issues... Several plugs had become frozen due to driving snow & some had fallen off their cradles in the wind. Drivers were having to put them inside their cars to thaw them out. This lead to delays which meant cars arriving with preconditioned batteries were cold by the time they made it to the Supercharger. With an ambient temperature of -20C & wind chill, heat pump equipped Teslas were close to their operational limit & were taking an excessive amount of time to heat the batteries enough to allow charging to commence. The high proportion of rwd LFP Model 3s in Chicago didn't help either as it's not a chemistry that's recommended for extreme cold conditions.

The article didn't mention that ICEVs failed to start on that day due to waxing diesel, glow plug issues & high oil viscosity. 

Sounds like a bit of a mess, maybe some changes are needed to better manage the chargers in extreme conditions. Wonder if the plugs could be gently heated?

You mention the impacts on ICEV's, and QrizB mentioned Norway, so this recent article may be of interest, as the cold weather does its worst, especially when it comes to strating the cars. Looks like bad news for all, but no worse for EV's. [Also reminds me of something I saw in Sweden (BiL lives there), and learnt is used in Canada too, which is a small socket on the front of ICEV's. In cold weather you plug in a small cable, and then heat one of the engine bolts, to warm the engine block up, ready to start it in the morning.]

Electric car cold weather fears dispelled in Norway

Electric car cold weather fears were recently dispelled in Norway. 

Norway has been experiencing a cold wave since the beginning of the year, increasing the need for car recovery services. Svein Setrom from rescue service company Vikings Assistance Group noted a sharp increase in missions since 2022. 

In 2024, so far, most Viking missions relate to vehicles with battery problems or drivers having trouble starting their cars. Setrom noted that 13% of starting difficulties are linked to electric cars, while 87% are from fossil fuel vehicles. He added that 23% of the cars on Norwegian roads are EVs. 

I am attaching here with slight modification the comment I made in another post so apologies if you’ve already read it but worth repeating in view of the comment  Looks like bad news for all, but no worse for EV's. I just want to put some context to the Teslerati article.

Most of us will have owned ICE vehicles in the past and be aware that the first cold snap brings to light any deficiencies in our 12v car batteries. 12v batteries are a wear and tear item but how many of us buy a new battery before it actually causes problems? Cold weather sniffs out the weak batteries and every winter the number of call outs to flat batteries rises. Across the whole car fleet which might on average be 7 years old (or more likely even older in Norway) there will be quite a few ICE cars due a new 12v battery at any time and a cold snap is the final straw. (We can put that down to lack of owner maintenance if you like.) Or some cars may have been stood for a few days, or someone may have left an interior light on. Breakdown services come out and give us a jump start and we are on our way again - although it’s worth getting the battery checked. It really isn’t a big deal.

Now contrast that with the situation numerous Tesla owners are facing in the northern United States. If you have a dead Tesla, a jump start won’t get you anywhere. It is the ride of shame on the back of a recovery truck - not great for the brand. When you finally get to the charging station you join the queue of other stranded Tesla owners, waiting for several hours until you finally get on a charger, then with the depleted battery take another couple of hours to charge up to 80% which then might (or might not) be good for another 100 miles driving (or maybe 75 miles in a standard range) as you shouldn’t really go below 30% in this weather. You then (if you don’t have one at home) have to find another charger - good luck with that. This cold snap (is it that unusual for northern U.S. states?) is already causing cars to spend longer on chargers and with the advice not to let the charge get too low more frequent charging trips. The energy available from the car in this weather is reduced and more energy is spent conditioning the battery so more charging stops and more queuing, and if you are lucky enough to have some charge left watching the battery go down as you sit in the queue, trying to keep warm. Ah, but I’ve got a heat pump - well it isn’t going to work very well at sub zero (F) temperatures. 

Really no worse for EVs? Objectively?

EricMears

Martyn1981 said:

. [Also reminds me of something I saw in Sweden (BiL lives there), and learnt is used in Canada too, which is a small socket on the front of ICEV's. In cold weather you plug in a small cable, and then heat one of the engine bolts, to warm the engine block up, ready to start it in the morning.]

Probably not of any great interest to EV owners but Kenlowe (& no doubt others) have been offering systems whereby a small immersion heater element can preheat the cooling system for many years.

paul991

At least being in UK this wont be a problem any thing like minus 20 everything will be shut and  we will be told to stay at  home  

JKenH

OK, so I was a bit premature (or a year late) with my previous post about Tesla price cuts but here they are. Perhaps a little surprising as Tesla have recently announced they are halting production at Berlin for a couple of weeks. Obviously Tesla have been able to make big cost savings. Good news all round. 

Tesla slashes prices across Europe on Model Y

Tesla has slashed the prices of its Model Y across Europe this morning, after it reduced prices of its Model 3 and Model Y prices in China to undercut BYD, according to CNBC. 

In Germany, Tesla reduced the price of its Model Y Long Range by €5,000 to €49,990 ($54,340), a discount of 9%. It also cut the price of its Model Y Performance by €5,000 to €55,990, an 8% discount. 

https://electrek.co/2024/01/17/tesla-joins-vw-and-byd-in-cutting-prices-in-germany/

MeteredOut

Grumpy_chap said:

QrizB said:

At least one journalist noted that Teslas and Superchargers work fine in Norway, where it's regularly colder than Chicago, so it's not a global problem - just Chicago now.

I was thinking about Norway and the fact there are regular mentions in these forums about how far ahead of the curve the take-up of EV's is there only this morning on my way to work.

Today was the first time it was properly cold (-5degC) and entering the car I was greeted by multiple series of messages:

• Regenerative braking temporarily reduced
• Park assist is degraded 
• Lane departure avoidance features unavailable
• Autopilot speed restricted to 60 mph

Obviously, only the first of these is really associated with being an EV.  There was plenty of space to fill up with recovered energy since I only charged to 80% yesterday.

The other issues are to do with the promise that we have fully autonomous cars "tomorrow".  Frankly, if autonomous assist features don't work in the cold, we are far away from the promise being fulfilled.  I suspect we will have the fully autonomous car the same day as we get that "electricity too cheap to meter" that we were promised.

When was that promised, and by whom?

Grumpy_chap

MeteredOut said:

Grumpy_chap said:

QrizB said:

At least one journalist noted that Teslas and Superchargers work fine in Norway, where it's regularly colder than Chicago, so it's not a global problem - just Chicago now.

I was thinking about Norway and the fact there are regular mentions in these forums about how far ahead of the curve the take-up of EV's is there only this morning on my way to work.

Today was the first time it was properly cold (-5degC) and entering the car I was greeted by multiple series of messages:

• Regenerative braking temporarily reduced
• Park assist is degraded 
• Lane departure avoidance features unavailable
• Autopilot speed restricted to 60 mph

Obviously, only the first of these is really associated with being an EV.  There was plenty of space to fill up with recovered energy since I only charged to 80% yesterday.

The other issues are to do with the promise that we have fully autonomous cars "tomorrow".  Frankly, if autonomous assist features don't work in the cold, we are far away from the promise being fulfilled.  I suspect we will have the fully autonomous car the same day as we get that "electricity too cheap to meter" that we were promised.

When was that promised, and by whom?

That was the big promise of nuclear power.