EV Discussion thread

1961Nick

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Ahead of the SMMT’s registration figures for July which, I believe, should be published today I came across this article from Autocar with figures for the private buyer take up for some of the popular EVs. Perhaps we will see better figures this month. 

Industry calls for urgent support as electric car uptake slows

That market share plateau is driven by a slump in overall private EV registrations, which are down about 20% year on year and now account for less than half of the total number of new car registrations. 

As dramatic snapshots of the market, just 13% of Volkswagen ID 5s, 21% of Tesla Model Ys and 41% of Ford Mustang Mach-Es this year have been sold to private customers. 

Research from Auto Trader, published under the title The Road to 2030, further underlines this, suggesting there has been a 65% year-on-year fall in the number of enquiries sent to retailers about electric cars, with EV enquiries currently only accounting for 9% of the total, compared with 27% this time last year. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/industry-calls-urgent-support-electric-car-uptake-slows

This makes logical/financial sense.  Basically company buyers get a big discount which means for them the effective new price is lower which will apply a similar downward pressure on used prices.  Private buyers don't get the new price discount but still face the lower used price hence higher cost of ownership and thus relatively speaking a bad buy.

eg TM3 list price 40k but effetive price to a company buyer 35k due to the tax incentive.  After 3 years the SH value will be based on the 35k as the vast majority of sales are effectively at this price (just as an example 35k x 40% = 14k), leaving those who pay 40k with no incentive seeing depreciation of 26k rather than the 21k seen by the fleet buyers.  ICE vehicles don't see the subsidy so won't suffer from this effect so make more sense for private buyers.

So, the tax advantages for businesses are effectively deterring potential private new EV buyers?

Many private buyers are taking advantage of the business tax breaks via SalSac schemes. This is really skewing the private/business figures. I think it's also tempting many to buy new through SalSac rather than buying a one or two year old car & charging business miles.

It is skewing the figures and impacting the few private buyers, as @Michaels says, by depressing the resale value of their EVs. As I mentioned in my post on the $20k Tesla in Colorado, someone takes a hit when you meddle with the free market. Skewing the incentives for new EV purchases in favour of those paying 40% tax is divisive economically but only divisive politically if people realise what’s going on. 

People moan, when on holiday they find out the folks in the room next door got a 50% discount, but surprisingly don’t about their neighbour’s car costing them 50% less.

You could also argue that many company car drivers have been royally screwed by HMRC over the past 20 years. If your job involved a large amount of business travel then a company car was essential & along with that came a hefty personal tax bill... often way higher than the actual BIK.

There's been a significant uptake in SalSac schemes by basic rate taxpayers as well as high earners.

I am struggling to think of an example of an employee being forced to run a car where the BIK was higher than the cost to the individual of running the car.

If you had a £20k company car  with a BIK rate of 20% you would pay tax of £1k a year as a 20% tax payer or £2k if on 40%. Can you run a new £20k car for £1k or £2 k a year. It wouldn’t cover the depreciation let alone the servicing, maintenance, VED and insurance. Even in  an extreme example of the maximum BIK rate of 35% on a £50 k car your tax would be £7k. At that BIK rate it’s likely to be a high performance car which it is unlikely you could run for less than £7k a year (excl fuel). If you think the tax is too high then you would choose something more economical to run. 

The majority of people I know that have company cars are paying around £500 per month for the privilege. A couple of things are responsible for that - the BIK pushes their salary into the 40% bracket & the BIK is calculated on the list price of the car not the 20%+ discounted price the company paid for it. 

But does that £500/month include fuel benefit? 

Here’s a BIK calculator from BMW which suggests a cost to the employee of £431/month for a 40%taxpayer earning £50k driving a £43k car. It probably costs that much to lease a £43K car so are company car drivers really being stung by BIK rules?

https://comcar.co.uk/companycar/tax/calculation/?vehicle_id=0000196633

I was interested in the example quoted by BMW that they paired a £36k salary with a £43k car. When I was working my company allowed a car to the value of 50% of annual salary. To be eligible for a £43k car you would have needed to be earning £86k! Everybody seems to believe they should be driving round in new Mercs and BMWs.

Fuel benefit was priced out of the workplace some years ago. I guess if you were moonlighting as an Uber driver in your CC you might have an outside chance of finishing on the upside!

Those calculators are obviously accurate for year 1 but the creep in BIK rates means that in years 2-4 you're likely to be taxed more as emissions become more punitive.

silvercar

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Ahead of the SMMT’s registration figures for July which, I believe, should be published today I came across this article from Autocar with figures for the private buyer take up for some of the popular EVs. Perhaps we will see better figures this month. 

Industry calls for urgent support as electric car uptake slows

That market share plateau is driven by a slump in overall private EV registrations, which are down about 20% year on year and now account for less than half of the total number of new car registrations. 

As dramatic snapshots of the market, just 13% of Volkswagen ID 5s, 21% of Tesla Model Ys and 41% of Ford Mustang Mach-Es this year have been sold to private customers. 

Research from Auto Trader, published under the title The Road to 2030, further underlines this, suggesting there has been a 65% year-on-year fall in the number of enquiries sent to retailers about electric cars, with EV enquiries currently only accounting for 9% of the total, compared with 27% this time last year. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/industry-calls-urgent-support-electric-car-uptake-slows

This makes logical/financial sense.  Basically company buyers get a big discount which means for them the effective new price is lower which will apply a similar downward pressure on used prices.  Private buyers don't get the new price discount but still face the lower used price hence higher cost of ownership and thus relatively speaking a bad buy.

eg TM3 list price 40k but effetive price to a company buyer 35k due to the tax incentive.  After 3 years the SH value will be based on the 35k as the vast majority of sales are effectively at this price (just as an example 35k x 40% = 14k), leaving those who pay 40k with no incentive seeing depreciation of 26k rather than the 21k seen by the fleet buyers.  ICE vehicles don't see the subsidy so won't suffer from this effect so make more sense for private buyers.

So, the tax advantages for businesses are effectively deterring potential private new EV buyers?

Many private buyers are taking advantage of the business tax breaks via SalSac schemes. This is really skewing the private/business figures. I think it's also tempting many to buy new through SalSac rather than buying a one or two year old car & charging business miles.

It is skewing the figures and impacting the few private buyers, as @Michaels says, by depressing the resale value of their EVs. As I mentioned in my post on the $20k Tesla in Colorado, someone takes a hit when you meddle with the free market. Skewing the incentives for new EV purchases in favour of those paying 40% tax is divisive economically but only divisive politically if people realise what’s going on. 

People moan, when on holiday they find out the folks in the room next door got a 50% discount, but surprisingly don’t about their neighbour’s car costing them 50% less.

You could also argue that many company car drivers have been royally screwed by HMRC over the past 20 years. If your job involved a large amount of business travel then a company car was essential & along with that came a hefty personal tax bill... often way higher than the actual BIK.

There's been a significant uptake in SalSac schemes by basic rate taxpayers as well as high earners.

I am struggling to think of an example of an employee being forced to run a car where the BIK was higher than the cost to the individual of running the car.

If you had a £20k company car  with a BIK rate of 20% you would pay tax of £1k a year as a 20% tax payer or £2k if on 40%. Can you run a new £20k car for £1k or £2 k a year. It wouldn’t cover the depreciation let alone the servicing, maintenance, VED and insurance. Even in  an extreme example of the maximum BIK rate of 35% on a £50 k car your tax would be £7k. At that BIK rate it’s likely to be a high performance car which it is unlikely you could run for less than £7k a year (excl fuel). If you think the tax is too high then you would choose something more economical to run. 

The majority of people I know that have company cars are paying around £500 per month for the privilege. A couple of things are responsible for that - the BIK pushes their salary into the 40% bracket & the BIK is calculated on the list price of the car not the 20%+ discounted price the company paid for it. 

But does that £500/month include fuel benefit? 

Here’s a BIK calculator from BMW which suggests a cost to the employee of £431/month for a 40%taxpayer earning £50k driving a £43k car. It probably costs that much to lease a £43K car so are company car drivers really being stung by BIK rules?

https://comcar.co.uk/companycar/tax/calculation/?vehicle_id=0000196633

I was interested in the example quoted by BMW that they paired a £36k salary with a £43k car. When I was working my company allowed a car to the value of 50% of annual salary. To be eligible for a £43k car you would have needed to be earning £86k! Everybody seems to believe they should be driving round in new Mercs and BMWs.

In some career paths, particularly male dominated sales sectors, staff are more motivated by the car that they are supplied than by the actual salary!

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Ahead of the SMMT’s registration figures for July which, I believe, should be published today I came across this article from Autocar with figures for the private buyer take up for some of the popular EVs. Perhaps we will see better figures this month. 

Industry calls for urgent support as electric car uptake slows

That market share plateau is driven by a slump in overall private EV registrations, which are down about 20% year on year and now account for less than half of the total number of new car registrations. 

As dramatic snapshots of the market, just 13% of Volkswagen ID 5s, 21% of Tesla Model Ys and 41% of Ford Mustang Mach-Es this year have been sold to private customers. 

Research from Auto Trader, published under the title The Road to 2030, further underlines this, suggesting there has been a 65% year-on-year fall in the number of enquiries sent to retailers about electric cars, with EV enquiries currently only accounting for 9% of the total, compared with 27% this time last year. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/industry-calls-urgent-support-electric-car-uptake-slows

This makes logical/financial sense.  Basically company buyers get a big discount which means for them the effective new price is lower which will apply a similar downward pressure on used prices.  Private buyers don't get the new price discount but still face the lower used price hence higher cost of ownership and thus relatively speaking a bad buy.

eg TM3 list price 40k but effetive price to a company buyer 35k due to the tax incentive.  After 3 years the SH value will be based on the 35k as the vast majority of sales are effectively at this price (just as an example 35k x 40% = 14k), leaving those who pay 40k with no incentive seeing depreciation of 26k rather than the 21k seen by the fleet buyers.  ICE vehicles don't see the subsidy so won't suffer from this effect so make more sense for private buyers.

So, the tax advantages for businesses are effectively deterring potential private new EV buyers?

Many private buyers are taking advantage of the business tax breaks via SalSac schemes. This is really skewing the private/business figures. I think it's also tempting many to buy new through SalSac rather than buying a one or two year old car & charging business miles.

It is skewing the figures and impacting the few private buyers, as @Michaels says, by depressing the resale value of their EVs. As I mentioned in my post on the $20k Tesla in Colorado, someone takes a hit when you meddle with the free market. Skewing the incentives for new EV purchases in favour of those paying 40% tax is divisive economically but only divisive politically if people realise what’s going on. 

People moan, when on holiday they find out the folks in the room next door got a 50% discount, but surprisingly don’t about their neighbour’s car costing them 50% less.

You could also argue that many company car drivers have been royally screwed by HMRC over the past 20 years. If your job involved a large amount of business travel then a company car was essential & along with that came a hefty personal tax bill... often way higher than the actual BIK.

There's been a significant uptake in SalSac schemes by basic rate taxpayers as well as high earners.

I am struggling to think of an example of an employee being forced to run a car where the BIK was higher than the cost to the individual of running the car.

If you had a £20k company car  with a BIK rate of 20% you would pay tax of £1k a year as a 20% tax payer or £2k if on 40%. Can you run a new £20k car for £1k or £2 k a year. It wouldn’t cover the depreciation let alone the servicing, maintenance, VED and insurance. Even in  an extreme example of the maximum BIK rate of 35% on a £50 k car your tax would be £7k. At that BIK rate it’s likely to be a high performance car which it is unlikely you could run for less than £7k a year (excl fuel). If you think the tax is too high then you would choose something more economical to run. 

The majority of people I know that have company cars are paying around £500 per month for the privilege. A couple of things are responsible for that - the BIK pushes their salary into the 40% bracket & the BIK is calculated on the list price of the car not the 20%+ discounted price the company paid for it. 

But does that £500/month include fuel benefit? 

Here’s a BIK calculator from BMW which suggests a cost to the employee of £431/month for a 40%taxpayer earning £50k driving a £43k car. It probably costs that much to lease a £43K car so are company car drivers really being stung by BIK rules?

https://comcar.co.uk/companycar/tax/calculation/?vehicle_id=0000196633

I was interested in the example quoted by BMW that they paired a £36k salary with a £43k car. When I was working my company allowed a car to the value of 50% of annual salary. To be eligible for a £43k car you would have needed to be earning £86k! Everybody seems to believe they should be driving round in new Mercs and BMWs.

Fuel benefit was priced out of the workplace some years ago. I guess if you were moonlighting as an Uber driver in your CC you might have an outside chance of finishing on the upside!

Those calculators are obviously accurate for year 1 but the creep in BIK rates means that in years 2-4 you're likely to be taxed more as emissions become more punitive.

The BIK rates until 2028 have already been set out by the government and there will be a 1 % point rise for most cars from April 2025 but those which emit less than 75g/km of CO2 rise by 3 % points by 2028. 

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-faq/what-are-the-current-bik-bands-/3/

JKenH

So, you can buy a new Tesla for $20k but you struggle to find a used one under $25k. Has the car buying public gone mad?

Tesla vehicles get added to $4,000 used EV credit, if you can find one under $25,000

Obviously, the big limiting factor will be the $25,000 max price tag. It is fairly rare to find a used Tesla under $25,000 aside from some of the oldest Model S vehicles and Model 3 vehicles with a lot of mileage on them. 

Last month, we reported on Tesla vehicles leading a large drop in used EV prices, but despite a massive 30% drop, the average used Model 3 was still selling for $37,000.

https://electrek.co/2023/08/07/tesla-vehicles-added-4000-used-ev-credit/

JKenH

Here’s a ringing endorsement of EVs. 

Three in ten electric vehicle drivers are 'glad' they made the switch, study finds

Nearly three in ten (29%), of the 500 electric vehicle drivers polled, said they are “glad” they made the switch, as 76% believe EVs are the future.

However, 91% admitted that some elements of driving an EV have taken some getting used to – with four in five saying they were initially put off, as they believed battery-powered engines weren't capable of making long journeys.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/top-questions-electric-vehicles-driving-30644947

1961Nick

JKenH said:

Here’s a ringing endorsement of EVs. 

Three in ten electric vehicle drivers are 'glad' they made the switch, study finds

Nearly three in ten (29%), of the 500 electric vehicle drivers polled, said they are “glad” they made the switch, as 76% believe EVs are the future.

However, 91% admitted that some elements of driving an EV have taken some getting used to – with four in five saying they were initially put off, as they believed battery-powered engines weren't capable of making long journeys.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/top-questions-electric-vehicles-driving-30644947

I honestly can' think of anything negative about owning & driving a model 3.

If my previous car has been a V8 I would have said I miss the sound... but a 435d isn't very memorable in that department!.

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

Here’s a ringing endorsement of EVs. 

Three in ten electric vehicle drivers are 'glad' they made the switch, study finds

Nearly three in ten (29%), of the 500 electric vehicle drivers polled, said they are “glad” they made the switch, as 76% believe EVs are the future.

However, 91% admitted that some elements of driving an EV have taken some getting used to – with four in five saying they were initially put off, as they believed battery-powered engines weren't capable of making long journeys.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/top-questions-electric-vehicles-driving-30644947

I honestly can' think of anything negative about owning & driving a model 3.

If my previous car has been a V8 I would have said I miss the sound... but a 435d isn't very memorable in that department!.

I felt the same about my Leaf and only bought another petrol car because of the problems I encountered with public charging. I very much enjoyed driving the Leaf particularly E-Pedal and it was fault free for the 30 months I owned it and has continued to be in my son’s hands. Every day though I see stories on Facebook reflecting my own experience of out of service and busy chargers. I would still like an EV for use within range of home but the economics, particularly now I am being paid for exporting my surplus PV, mean an additional vehicle would be an indulgence. 

JKenH

Bit of a shock.

Tesla’s ‘Master of Coin’ unexpectedly leaves with £130m fortune

Tesla’s 39-year-old chief financial officer has left the company with a $170m (£130m) fortune after just four years in the post.

The electric car company announced on Monday that Zachary Kirkhorn had unexpectedly stepped down.

In a LinkedIn post, the Harvard MBA graduate thanked chief executive Elon Musk for his “leadership and optimism, which has inspired so many people”. He did not give a reason for his departure.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/08/07/tesla-finance-chief-leaves-130m-fortune-zachary-kirkhorn/

thevilla

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

Here’s a ringing endorsement of EVs. 

Three in ten electric vehicle drivers are 'glad' they made the switch, study finds

Nearly three in ten (29%), of the 500 electric vehicle drivers polled, said they are “glad” they made the switch, as 76% believe EVs are the future.

However, 91% admitted that some elements of driving an EV have taken some getting used to – with four in five saying they were initially put off, as they believed battery-powered engines weren't capable of making long journeys.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/top-questions-electric-vehicles-driving-30644947

I honestly can' think of anything negative about owning & driving a model 3.

If my previous car has been a V8 I would have said I miss the sound... but a 435d isn't very memorable in that department!.

I felt the same about my Leaf and only bought another petrol car because of the problems I encountered with public charging. I very much enjoyed driving the Leaf particularly E-Pedal and it was fault free for the 30 months I owned it and has continued to be in my son’s hands. Every day though I see stories on Facebook reflecting my own experience of out of service and busy chargers. I would still like an EV for use within range of home but the economics, particularly now I am being paid for exporting my surplus PV, mean an additional vehicle would be an indulgence. 

Does being paid for your export compensate for buying fuel?  I recognise it's hard to get decent charging if your PV array is typically sized in our weather but 4 free miles Vs a few pence per kWh?

I hope you return to the EV fold soon 😁

JKenH

thevilla said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

Here’s a ringing endorsement of EVs. 

Three in ten electric vehicle drivers are 'glad' they made the switch, study finds

Nearly three in ten (29%), of the 500 electric vehicle drivers polled, said they are “glad” they made the switch, as 76% believe EVs are the future.

However, 91% admitted that some elements of driving an EV have taken some getting used to – with four in five saying they were initially put off, as they believed battery-powered engines weren't capable of making long journeys.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/top-questions-electric-vehicles-driving-30644947

I honestly can' think of anything negative about owning & driving a model 3.

If my previous car has been a V8 I would have said I miss the sound... but a 435d isn't very memorable in that department!.

I felt the same about my Leaf and only bought another petrol car because of the problems I encountered with public charging. I very much enjoyed driving the Leaf particularly E-Pedal and it was fault free for the 30 months I owned it and has continued to be in my son’s hands. Every day though I see stories on Facebook reflecting my own experience of out of service and busy chargers. I would still like an EV for use within range of home but the economics, particularly now I am being paid for exporting my surplus PV, mean an additional vehicle would be an indulgence. 

Does being paid for your export compensate for buying fuel?  I recognise it's hard to get decent charging if your PV array is typically sized in our weather but 4 free miles Vs a few pence per kWh?

I hope you return to the EV fold soon 😁

I started writing a long reply but my IPad went flat and I lost the post. The short answer is no and yes. The cost of fuelling in terms of lost export is about 6p per mile compared to 12p per mile in my Golf. I do though lose the cheap import rate of 9.5p on Octopus Go and only get 3 hours at 17.5p so overall it would cost me more to fuel an EV on Flux than a petrol car. I hope to export around 3500 to 4000 kWh and earn £800 ish. My petrol bill for about 6k miles pa is around £720. 

On Go I would have to import £150-£200ish to fuel the EV and could have earned £165 in FiT export payments. I would also on past form have spent as much again on public charging (if I wasn’t using  the petrol car for long runs.)