EV Discussion thread

1961Nick

michaels said:

thevilla said:

Surely the tax incentives should be loaded against ICE.  Increase fuel duty on fossil to incentivise alternative fuels.  Less need to give takes breaks to employees and a less skewed EV market.

The govt won't do it though as the right wing press in particular, use fossil fuel price as a dog whistle.  The fuel price escalator of the 1990s(?) was a good idea.

..........Not sure why the UK govt finds it so uniquely hard to tie together environmental and industrial policeis?

That would require joined up thinking which is something government is clearly incapable of.

JKenH

Why wouldn’t you buy a new Tesla in Colorado? Where does the money come from for these programmes? Somebody has to pay. If a UK government was offering subsidies like this then it could prove quite divisive. A few lucky people like me who can stump up the equivalent of $20k and have access to home charging would be buying Teslas while a substantial majority already struggling with high mortgage payments/cost of living and nowhere to charge would be asking who’s paying for it. Or maybe not: don’t the BIK rules offering zero NI and 40% tax breaks effectively offer the same sort of deal in the UK and there is no groundswell of opposition. Perhaps the electorate both here and the US is just, on the whole, too stupid to realise that government giveaways are ultimately funded by the taxpayer. 

Tesla Model 3 Could Cost Under $20,000 in Colorado, USA

Tesla Model 3 could get a purchase price below $20,000 in Colorado, USA. The state has generous incentives in place to encourage the purchase of electric vehicles to meet Colorado's transportation electrification goals.

CPR News (via @SawyerMerritt/X) shared a list of incentives that EV buyers in Colorado can receive. It is quite extensive and offers the opportunity to get $26,500 when buying an EV. It should be kept in mind that it will be difficult to meet absolutely all the requirements for all existing benefits. However, getting the most likely ones will still result in savings of over $20,000.

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/tesla-model-3-could-get-the-price-under-20-000-in-colorado-usa

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Ahead of the SMMT’s registration figures for July which, I believe, should be published today I came across this article from Autocar with figures for the private buyer take up for some of the popular EVs. Perhaps we will see better figures this month. 

Industry calls for urgent support as electric car uptake slows

That market share plateau is driven by a slump in overall private EV registrations, which are down about 20% year on year and now account for less than half of the total number of new car registrations. 

As dramatic snapshots of the market, just 13% of Volkswagen ID 5s, 21% of Tesla Model Ys and 41% of Ford Mustang Mach-Es this year have been sold to private customers. 

Research from Auto Trader, published under the title The Road to 2030, further underlines this, suggesting there has been a 65% year-on-year fall in the number of enquiries sent to retailers about electric cars, with EV enquiries currently only accounting for 9% of the total, compared with 27% this time last year. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/industry-calls-urgent-support-electric-car-uptake-slows

This makes logical/financial sense.  Basically company buyers get a big discount which means for them the effective new price is lower which will apply a similar downward pressure on used prices.  Private buyers don't get the new price discount but still face the lower used price hence higher cost of ownership and thus relatively speaking a bad buy.

eg TM3 list price 40k but effetive price to a company buyer 35k due to the tax incentive.  After 3 years the SH value will be based on the 35k as the vast majority of sales are effectively at this price (just as an example 35k x 40% = 14k), leaving those who pay 40k with no incentive seeing depreciation of 26k rather than the 21k seen by the fleet buyers.  ICE vehicles don't see the subsidy so won't suffer from this effect so make more sense for private buyers.

So, the tax advantages for businesses are effectively deterring potential private new EV buyers?

Many private buyers are taking advantage of the business tax breaks via SalSac schemes. This is really skewing the private/business figures. I think it's also tempting many to buy new through SalSac rather than buying a one or two year old car & charging business miles.

It is skewing the figures and impacting the few private buyers, as @Michaels says, by depressing the resale value of their EVs. As I mentioned in my post on the $20k Tesla in Colorado, someone takes a hit when you meddle with the free market. Skewing the incentives for new EV purchases in favour of those paying 40% tax is divisive economically but only divisive politically if people realise what’s going on. 

People moan, when on holiday they find out the folks in the room next door got a 50% discount, but surprisingly don’t about their neighbour’s car costing them 50% less.

1961Nick

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Ahead of the SMMT’s registration figures for July which, I believe, should be published today I came across this article from Autocar with figures for the private buyer take up for some of the popular EVs. Perhaps we will see better figures this month. 

Industry calls for urgent support as electric car uptake slows

That market share plateau is driven by a slump in overall private EV registrations, which are down about 20% year on year and now account for less than half of the total number of new car registrations. 

As dramatic snapshots of the market, just 13% of Volkswagen ID 5s, 21% of Tesla Model Ys and 41% of Ford Mustang Mach-Es this year have been sold to private customers. 

Research from Auto Trader, published under the title The Road to 2030, further underlines this, suggesting there has been a 65% year-on-year fall in the number of enquiries sent to retailers about electric cars, with EV enquiries currently only accounting for 9% of the total, compared with 27% this time last year. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/industry-calls-urgent-support-electric-car-uptake-slows

This makes logical/financial sense.  Basically company buyers get a big discount which means for them the effective new price is lower which will apply a similar downward pressure on used prices.  Private buyers don't get the new price discount but still face the lower used price hence higher cost of ownership and thus relatively speaking a bad buy.

eg TM3 list price 40k but effetive price to a company buyer 35k due to the tax incentive.  After 3 years the SH value will be based on the 35k as the vast majority of sales are effectively at this price (just as an example 35k x 40% = 14k), leaving those who pay 40k with no incentive seeing depreciation of 26k rather than the 21k seen by the fleet buyers.  ICE vehicles don't see the subsidy so won't suffer from this effect so make more sense for private buyers.

So, the tax advantages for businesses are effectively deterring potential private new EV buyers?

Many private buyers are taking advantage of the business tax breaks via SalSac schemes. This is really skewing the private/business figures. I think it's also tempting many to buy new through SalSac rather than buying a one or two year old car & charging business miles.

It is skewing the figures and impacting the few private buyers, as @Michaels says, by depressing the resale value of their EVs. As I mentioned in my post on the $20k Tesla in Colorado, someone takes a hit when you meddle with the free market. Skewing the incentives for new EV purchases in favour of those paying 40% tax is divisive economically but only divisive politically if people realise what’s going on. 

People moan, when on holiday they find out the folks in the room next door got a 50% discount, but surprisingly don’t about their neighbour’s car costing them 50% less.

You could also argue that many company car drivers have been royally screwed by HMRC over the past 20 years. If your job involved a large amount of business travel then a company car was essential & along with that came a hefty personal tax bill... often way higher than the actual BIK.

There's been a significant uptake in SalSac schemes by basic rate taxpayers as well as high earners.

shinytop

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Ahead of the SMMT’s registration figures for July which, I believe, should be published today I came across this article from Autocar with figures for the private buyer take up for some of the popular EVs. Perhaps we will see better figures this month. 

Industry calls for urgent support as electric car uptake slows

That market share plateau is driven by a slump in overall private EV registrations, which are down about 20% year on year and now account for less than half of the total number of new car registrations. 

As dramatic snapshots of the market, just 13% of Volkswagen ID 5s, 21% of Tesla Model Ys and 41% of Ford Mustang Mach-Es this year have been sold to private customers. 

Research from Auto Trader, published under the title The Road to 2030, further underlines this, suggesting there has been a 65% year-on-year fall in the number of enquiries sent to retailers about electric cars, with EV enquiries currently only accounting for 9% of the total, compared with 27% this time last year. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/industry-calls-urgent-support-electric-car-uptake-slows

This makes logical/financial sense.  Basically company buyers get a big discount which means for them the effective new price is lower which will apply a similar downward pressure on used prices.  Private buyers don't get the new price discount but still face the lower used price hence higher cost of ownership and thus relatively speaking a bad buy.

eg TM3 list price 40k but effetive price to a company buyer 35k due to the tax incentive.  After 3 years the SH value will be based on the 35k as the vast majority of sales are effectively at this price (just as an example 35k x 40% = 14k), leaving those who pay 40k with no incentive seeing depreciation of 26k rather than the 21k seen by the fleet buyers.  ICE vehicles don't see the subsidy so won't suffer from this effect so make more sense for private buyers.

So, the tax advantages for businesses are effectively deterring potential private new EV buyers?

Many private buyers are taking advantage of the business tax breaks via SalSac schemes. This is really skewing the private/business figures. I think it's also tempting many to buy new through SalSac rather than buying a one or two year old car & charging business miles.

It is skewing the figures and impacting the few private buyers, as @Michaels says, by depressing the resale value of their EVs. As I mentioned in my post on the $20k Tesla in Colorado, someone takes a hit when you meddle with the free market. Skewing the incentives for new EV purchases in favour of those paying 40% tax is divisive economically but only divisive politically if people realise what’s going on. 

People moan, when on holiday they find out the folks in the room next door got a 50% discount, but surprisingly don’t about their neighbour’s car costing them 50% less.

I do, especially when it's a £50k, 2 tonne Su(E)V.  

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Ahead of the SMMT’s registration figures for July which, I believe, should be published today I came across this article from Autocar with figures for the private buyer take up for some of the popular EVs. Perhaps we will see better figures this month. 

Industry calls for urgent support as electric car uptake slows

That market share plateau is driven by a slump in overall private EV registrations, which are down about 20% year on year and now account for less than half of the total number of new car registrations. 

As dramatic snapshots of the market, just 13% of Volkswagen ID 5s, 21% of Tesla Model Ys and 41% of Ford Mustang Mach-Es this year have been sold to private customers. 

Research from Auto Trader, published under the title The Road to 2030, further underlines this, suggesting there has been a 65% year-on-year fall in the number of enquiries sent to retailers about electric cars, with EV enquiries currently only accounting for 9% of the total, compared with 27% this time last year. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/industry-calls-urgent-support-electric-car-uptake-slows

This makes logical/financial sense.  Basically company buyers get a big discount which means for them the effective new price is lower which will apply a similar downward pressure on used prices.  Private buyers don't get the new price discount but still face the lower used price hence higher cost of ownership and thus relatively speaking a bad buy.

eg TM3 list price 40k but effetive price to a company buyer 35k due to the tax incentive.  After 3 years the SH value will be based on the 35k as the vast majority of sales are effectively at this price (just as an example 35k x 40% = 14k), leaving those who pay 40k with no incentive seeing depreciation of 26k rather than the 21k seen by the fleet buyers.  ICE vehicles don't see the subsidy so won't suffer from this effect so make more sense for private buyers.

So, the tax advantages for businesses are effectively deterring potential private new EV buyers?

Many private buyers are taking advantage of the business tax breaks via SalSac schemes. This is really skewing the private/business figures. I think it's also tempting many to buy new through SalSac rather than buying a one or two year old car & charging business miles.

It is skewing the figures and impacting the few private buyers, as @Michaels says, by depressing the resale value of their EVs. As I mentioned in my post on the $20k Tesla in Colorado, someone takes a hit when you meddle with the free market. Skewing the incentives for new EV purchases in favour of those paying 40% tax is divisive economically but only divisive politically if people realise what’s going on. 

People moan, when on holiday they find out the folks in the room next door got a 50% discount, but surprisingly don’t about their neighbour’s car costing them 50% less.

You could also argue that many company car drivers have been royally screwed by HMRC over the past 20 years. If your job involved a large amount of business travel then a company car was essential & along with that came a hefty personal tax bill... often way higher than the actual BIK.

There's been a significant uptake in SalSac schemes by basic rate taxpayers as well as high earners.

I am struggling to think of an example of an employee being forced to run a car where the BIK was higher than the cost to the individual of running the car.

If you had a £20k company car  with a BIK rate of 20% you would pay tax of £1k a year as a 20% tax payer or £2k if on 40%. Can you run a new £20k car for £1k or £2 k a year. It wouldn’t cover the depreciation let alone the servicing, maintenance, VED and insurance. Even in  an extreme example of the maximum BIK rate of 35% on a £50 k car your tax would be £7k. At that BIK rate it’s likely to be a high performance car which it is unlikely you could run for less than £7k a year (excl fuel). If you think the tax is too high then you would choose something more economical to run. 

JKenH

shinytop said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Ahead of the SMMT’s registration figures for July which, I believe, should be published today I came across this article from Autocar with figures for the private buyer take up for some of the popular EVs. Perhaps we will see better figures this month. 

Industry calls for urgent support as electric car uptake slows

That market share plateau is driven by a slump in overall private EV registrations, which are down about 20% year on year and now account for less than half of the total number of new car registrations. 

As dramatic snapshots of the market, just 13% of Volkswagen ID 5s, 21% of Tesla Model Ys and 41% of Ford Mustang Mach-Es this year have been sold to private customers. 

Research from Auto Trader, published under the title The Road to 2030, further underlines this, suggesting there has been a 65% year-on-year fall in the number of enquiries sent to retailers about electric cars, with EV enquiries currently only accounting for 9% of the total, compared with 27% this time last year. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/industry-calls-urgent-support-electric-car-uptake-slows

This makes logical/financial sense.  Basically company buyers get a big discount which means for them the effective new price is lower which will apply a similar downward pressure on used prices.  Private buyers don't get the new price discount but still face the lower used price hence higher cost of ownership and thus relatively speaking a bad buy.

eg TM3 list price 40k but effetive price to a company buyer 35k due to the tax incentive.  After 3 years the SH value will be based on the 35k as the vast majority of sales are effectively at this price (just as an example 35k x 40% = 14k), leaving those who pay 40k with no incentive seeing depreciation of 26k rather than the 21k seen by the fleet buyers.  ICE vehicles don't see the subsidy so won't suffer from this effect so make more sense for private buyers.

So, the tax advantages for businesses are effectively deterring potential private new EV buyers?

Many private buyers are taking advantage of the business tax breaks via SalSac schemes. This is really skewing the private/business figures. I think it's also tempting many to buy new through SalSac rather than buying a one or two year old car & charging business miles.

It is skewing the figures and impacting the few private buyers, as @Michaels says, by depressing the resale value of their EVs. As I mentioned in my post on the $20k Tesla in Colorado, someone takes a hit when you meddle with the free market. Skewing the incentives for new EV purchases in favour of those paying 40% tax is divisive economically but only divisive politically if people realise what’s going on. 

People moan, when on holiday they find out the folks in the room next door got a 50% discount, but surprisingly don’t about their neighbour’s car costing them 50% less.

I do, especially when it's a £50k, 2 tonne Su(E)V.  

In my case it’s my neighbour’s £75k Porsche Taycan I am subsidising, whether it’s coming from Income tax, VED, VAT or wherever. 

silvercar

Chatting to Uber Tesla 3 drivers in the US recently, the list price of a T3 is around 40K$. Shame they are all LHD! and electric costs are far lower, charging on the super charger network is about a quarter the price of here.

1961Nick

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Ahead of the SMMT’s registration figures for July which, I believe, should be published today I came across this article from Autocar with figures for the private buyer take up for some of the popular EVs. Perhaps we will see better figures this month. 

Industry calls for urgent support as electric car uptake slows

That market share plateau is driven by a slump in overall private EV registrations, which are down about 20% year on year and now account for less than half of the total number of new car registrations. 

As dramatic snapshots of the market, just 13% of Volkswagen ID 5s, 21% of Tesla Model Ys and 41% of Ford Mustang Mach-Es this year have been sold to private customers. 

Research from Auto Trader, published under the title The Road to 2030, further underlines this, suggesting there has been a 65% year-on-year fall in the number of enquiries sent to retailers about electric cars, with EV enquiries currently only accounting for 9% of the total, compared with 27% this time last year. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/industry-calls-urgent-support-electric-car-uptake-slows

This makes logical/financial sense.  Basically company buyers get a big discount which means for them the effective new price is lower which will apply a similar downward pressure on used prices.  Private buyers don't get the new price discount but still face the lower used price hence higher cost of ownership and thus relatively speaking a bad buy.

eg TM3 list price 40k but effetive price to a company buyer 35k due to the tax incentive.  After 3 years the SH value will be based on the 35k as the vast majority of sales are effectively at this price (just as an example 35k x 40% = 14k), leaving those who pay 40k with no incentive seeing depreciation of 26k rather than the 21k seen by the fleet buyers.  ICE vehicles don't see the subsidy so won't suffer from this effect so make more sense for private buyers.

So, the tax advantages for businesses are effectively deterring potential private new EV buyers?

Many private buyers are taking advantage of the business tax breaks via SalSac schemes. This is really skewing the private/business figures. I think it's also tempting many to buy new through SalSac rather than buying a one or two year old car & charging business miles.

It is skewing the figures and impacting the few private buyers, as @Michaels says, by depressing the resale value of their EVs. As I mentioned in my post on the $20k Tesla in Colorado, someone takes a hit when you meddle with the free market. Skewing the incentives for new EV purchases in favour of those paying 40% tax is divisive economically but only divisive politically if people realise what’s going on. 

People moan, when on holiday they find out the folks in the room next door got a 50% discount, but surprisingly don’t about their neighbour’s car costing them 50% less.

You could also argue that many company car drivers have been royally screwed by HMRC over the past 20 years. If your job involved a large amount of business travel then a company car was essential & along with that came a hefty personal tax bill... often way higher than the actual BIK.

There's been a significant uptake in SalSac schemes by basic rate taxpayers as well as high earners.

I am struggling to think of an example of an employee being forced to run a car where the BIK was higher than the cost to the individual of running the car.

If you had a £20k company car  with a BIK rate of 20% you would pay tax of £1k a year as a 20% tax payer or £2k if on 40%. Can you run a new £20k car for £1k or £2 k a year. It wouldn’t cover the depreciation let alone the servicing, maintenance, VED and insurance. Even in  an extreme example of the maximum BIK rate of 35% on a £50 k car your tax would be £7k. At that BIK rate it’s likely to be a high performance car which it is unlikely you could run for less than £7k a year (excl fuel). If you think the tax is too high then you would choose something more economical to run. 

The majority of people I know that have company cars are paying around £500 per month for the privilege. A couple of things are responsible for that - the BIK pushes their salary into the 40% bracket & the BIK is calculated on the list price of the car not the 20%+ discounted price the company paid for it. 

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Ahead of the SMMT’s registration figures for July which, I believe, should be published today I came across this article from Autocar with figures for the private buyer take up for some of the popular EVs. Perhaps we will see better figures this month. 

Industry calls for urgent support as electric car uptake slows

That market share plateau is driven by a slump in overall private EV registrations, which are down about 20% year on year and now account for less than half of the total number of new car registrations. 

As dramatic snapshots of the market, just 13% of Volkswagen ID 5s, 21% of Tesla Model Ys and 41% of Ford Mustang Mach-Es this year have been sold to private customers. 

Research from Auto Trader, published under the title The Road to 2030, further underlines this, suggesting there has been a 65% year-on-year fall in the number of enquiries sent to retailers about electric cars, with EV enquiries currently only accounting for 9% of the total, compared with 27% this time last year. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/industry-calls-urgent-support-electric-car-uptake-slows

This makes logical/financial sense.  Basically company buyers get a big discount which means for them the effective new price is lower which will apply a similar downward pressure on used prices.  Private buyers don't get the new price discount but still face the lower used price hence higher cost of ownership and thus relatively speaking a bad buy.

eg TM3 list price 40k but effetive price to a company buyer 35k due to the tax incentive.  After 3 years the SH value will be based on the 35k as the vast majority of sales are effectively at this price (just as an example 35k x 40% = 14k), leaving those who pay 40k with no incentive seeing depreciation of 26k rather than the 21k seen by the fleet buyers.  ICE vehicles don't see the subsidy so won't suffer from this effect so make more sense for private buyers.

So, the tax advantages for businesses are effectively deterring potential private new EV buyers?

Many private buyers are taking advantage of the business tax breaks via SalSac schemes. This is really skewing the private/business figures. I think it's also tempting many to buy new through SalSac rather than buying a one or two year old car & charging business miles.

It is skewing the figures and impacting the few private buyers, as @Michaels says, by depressing the resale value of their EVs. As I mentioned in my post on the $20k Tesla in Colorado, someone takes a hit when you meddle with the free market. Skewing the incentives for new EV purchases in favour of those paying 40% tax is divisive economically but only divisive politically if people realise what’s going on. 

People moan, when on holiday they find out the folks in the room next door got a 50% discount, but surprisingly don’t about their neighbour’s car costing them 50% less.

You could also argue that many company car drivers have been royally screwed by HMRC over the past 20 years. If your job involved a large amount of business travel then a company car was essential & along with that came a hefty personal tax bill... often way higher than the actual BIK.

There's been a significant uptake in SalSac schemes by basic rate taxpayers as well as high earners.

I am struggling to think of an example of an employee being forced to run a car where the BIK was higher than the cost to the individual of running the car.

If you had a £20k company car  with a BIK rate of 20% you would pay tax of £1k a year as a 20% tax payer or £2k if on 40%. Can you run a new £20k car for £1k or £2 k a year. It wouldn’t cover the depreciation let alone the servicing, maintenance, VED and insurance. Even in  an extreme example of the maximum BIK rate of 35% on a £50 k car your tax would be £7k. At that BIK rate it’s likely to be a high performance car which it is unlikely you could run for less than £7k a year (excl fuel). If you think the tax is too high then you would choose something more economical to run. 

The majority of people I know that have company cars are paying around £500 per month for the privilege. A couple of things are responsible for that - the BIK pushes their salary into the 40% bracket & the BIK is calculated on the list price of the car not the 20%+ discounted price the company paid for it. 

But does that £500/month include fuel benefit? 

Here’s a BIK calculator from BMW which suggests a cost to the employee of £431/month for a 40%taxpayer earning £50k driving a £43k car. It probably costs that much to lease a £43K car so are company car drivers really being stung by BIK rules?

https://comcar.co.uk/companycar/tax/calculation/?vehicle_id=0000196633

I was interested in the example quoted by BMW that they paired a £36k salary with a £43k car. When I was working my company allowed a car to the value of 50% of annual salary. To be eligible for a £43k car you would have needed to be earning £86k! Everybody seems to believe they should be driving round in new Mercs and BMWs.