EV Discussion thread

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

But we aren’t buying them at the moment. BEV sales transactions last year (latest statistics I could find) accounted for only 1% of the used car market. https://www.smmt.co.uk/2023/02/used-car-market-down-but-evs-buck-trend/

Autotrader are currently listing 406,161 used cars for sale of which 4.3% 17,544 are BEVs. 

That sample of current BEVs listed today is not the same as the sample will be when the 2022 vehicles are coming off lease.  The current sample is early Leafs, Ioniqs etc all with low capacity batteries and without the battery management features of today's EVs.  It will be a totally different mix of ex-fleet EV's in anther couple of years when all the TMY's, Q-Tron, iD's plus MG models etc are hitting the used market.

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

But we aren’t buying them at the moment. BEV sales transactions last year (latest statistics I could find) accounted for only 1% of the used car market. https://www.smmt.co.uk/2023/02/used-car-market-down-but-evs-buck-trend/

Autotrader are currently listing 406,161 used cars for sale of which 4.3% 17,544 are BEVs. 

That sample of current BEVs listed today is not the same as the sample will be when the 2022 vehicles are coming off lease.  The current sample is early Leafs, Ioniqs etc all with low capacity batteries and without the battery management features of today's EVs.  It will be a totally different mix of ex-fleet EV's in anther couple of years when all the TMY's, Q-Tron, iD's plus MG models etc are hitting the used market.

I will have a look at that later. I am in theory jet washing the drive today and will be in trouble if it doesn’t get done. 

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

But we aren’t buying them at the moment. BEV sales transactions last year (latest statistics I could find) accounted for only 1% of the used car market. https://www.smmt.co.uk/2023/02/used-car-market-down-but-evs-buck-trend/

Autotrader are currently listing 406,161 used cars for sale of which 4.3% 17,544 are BEVs. 

That sample of current BEVs listed today is not the same as the sample will be when the 2022 vehicles are coming off lease.  The current sample is early Leafs, Ioniqs etc all with low capacity batteries and without the battery management features of today's EVs.  It will be a totally different mix of ex-fleet EV's in anther couple of years when all the TMY's, Q-Tron, iD's plus MG models etc are hitting the used market.

Hiya. And it's not only the choice of models, but also the fleet mix and age. For instance if new sales are 15% BEV (an annual figure they have only been at for about 1yr), and cars last ~15yrs, then the impact on the fleet as a whole is only about 1%, for that year. Obviously those numbers are cumulative, and gradually the fleet mix will change*, but again, the mix of BEV's in the UK will currently be weighted towards newer models. So less available today, as the SH market trails several years behind the BEV new sales ramp.



Looking at the SMMT, this seems to be reflected in the large increase in YoY BEV sales:

Used battery electric vehicle (BEV) transactions bucked the overall trend, recording their best-ever annual performance with a record 71,071 units finding new owners in 2022, a rise of 37.5%, and boosting their overall market share to 1.0%, from 0.7% in 2021.

*Edit - Just to say that I've been trying to find a figure for the percentage of the UK car fleet that are BEV's. I'm not sure it's correct, but I keep finding a number of 2-3%, but it includes PHEV's.

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

But we aren’t buying them at the moment. BEV sales transactions last year (latest statistics I could find) accounted for only 1% of the used car market. https://www.smmt.co.uk/2023/02/used-car-market-down-but-evs-buck-trend/

Autotrader are currently listing 406,161 used cars for sale of which 4.3% 17,544 are BEVs. 

That sample of current BEVs listed today is not the same as the sample will be when the 2022 vehicles are coming off lease.  The current sample is early Leafs, Ioniqs etc all with low capacity batteries and without the battery management features of today's EVs.  It will be a totally different mix of ex-fleet EV's in anther couple of years when all the TMY's, Q-Tron, iD's plus MG models etc are hitting the used market.

I had a quick look at the figures. If you take out all NissanLeafs, Hyundai Ioniqs and Renault Zoes you are left with 14,107 cars. Alternatively, if you just remove all pre 2020 cars that leaves 13,989 modern EVs. Even after removing what you may consider undesirable EVs what’s left still makes up around about 3.5% of the used fleet.

I am not sure, though, that in considering choice in comparison to the ICE fleet you should omit these cars. I don’t have any recent figures but it might be the older cheaper EVs are actually the ones that are selling and the more recent ones are hanging around. 

In fact in 2021 the Leaf was the fastest selling car in the country.

According to the latest data from Auto Trader’s Fastest Selling Index, the 2016 Nissan Leaf (automatic) was the UK’s fastest selling used car in 2021, taking an average of just 17 days to leave forecourts.
https://plc.autotrader.co.uk/press-centre/news-hub/turning-over-a-new-leaf-electric-nissan-triumphs-as-2021-s-fastest-selling-used-car/

It might not be your cup of tea but for a lot of people it is an extremely practical and cheap to run second car. 

Edit: Also have a look at this from November 2022

Languishing on car dealer forecourts for the longest were a large number of cars from premium brands – including Mercedes, BMW and Audi.


https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/what-are-the-fastest-and-slowest-selling-used-cars/274935

JKenH

Be careful what you get up to in your Tesla. You might not appear on YouTube but someone might be watching you. 

Tesla Employees Shared Invasive Videos From Customers' Cars: Report

Groups of Tesla employees reportedly shared videos and images recorded by customers' car cameras between 2019 and 2022, according to interviews by Reuterswith nine former employees.

https://insideevs.com/news/661307/tesla-employees-shared-invasive-videos-customers-cars-report/

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

But we aren’t buying them at the moment. BEV sales transactions last year (latest statistics I could find) accounted for only 1% of the used car market. https://www.smmt.co.uk/2023/02/used-car-market-down-but-evs-buck-trend/

Autotrader are currently listing 406,161 used cars for sale of which 4.3% 17,544 are BEVs. 

That sample of current BEVs listed today is not the same as the sample will be when the 2022 vehicles are coming off lease.  The current sample is early Leafs, Ioniqs etc all with low capacity batteries and without the battery management features of today's EVs.  It will be a totally different mix of ex-fleet EV's in anther couple of years when all the TMY's, Q-Tron, iD's plus MG models etc are hitting the used market.

Hiya. And it's not only the choice of models, but also the fleet mix and age. For instance if new sales are 15% BEV (an annual figure they have only been at for about 1yr), and cars last ~15yrs, then the impact on the fleet as a whole is only about 1%, for that year. Obviously those numbers are cumulative, and gradually the fleet mix will change*, but again, the mix of BEV's in the UK will currently be weighted towards newer models. So less available today, as the SH market trails several years behind the BEV new sales ramp.



Looking at the SMMT, this seems to be reflected in the large increase in YoY BEV sales:

Used battery electric vehicle (BEV) transactions bucked the overall trend, recording their best-ever annual performance with a record 71,071 units finding new owners in 2022, a rise of 37.5%, and boosting their overall market share to 1.0%, from 0.7% in 2021.

*Edit - Just to say that I've been trying to find a figure for the percentage of the UK car fleet that are BEV's. I'm not sure it's correct, but I keep finding a number of 2-3%, but it includes PHEV's.

In March 2023 ZapMap say there are 735,000 BEVs and 480,000 PHEVs. https://www.zap-map.com/ev-market-statistics/

RAC Foundation suggest there were 33.2milion licences private cars at the end of September 2022. https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility

Assuming there has been no significant change in the total number of cars in the last 6 months, BEVs make up 2.2% of the total car fleet. 

It is interesting that BEVs account for 4.3% of the cars listed on Autotrader - possibly the older cars get the less likely they are to be sold in any given period (although that’s counter to my personal experience when I have tended to hang on to new cars longer than those bought secondhand) or perhaps the older/cheaper cars on the UK fleet are sold locally on used car lots or from small garages with no advertising or through eBay/Gumtree/Facebook Marketplace etc. I don’t know the source of the SMMT’s figures so they may or may not pick up these sales. 

Using the SMMT total for used car transactions of c6.9m it looks like 1 in 5 cars change hands every year. As there are a lot of fleet disposals in years 2-4 it does suggest that older cars change hands less frequently or the transactions don’t appear in SMMT statistics. 

As most EVs are probably less than 5 years old, one might, therefore, expect them to be over-represented on Autotrader. 

ABrass

JKenH said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

But we aren’t buying them at the moment. BEV sales transactions last year (latest statistics I could find) accounted for only 1% of the used car market. https://www.smmt.co.uk/2023/02/used-car-market-down-but-evs-buck-trend/

Autotrader are currently listing 406,161 used cars for sale of which 4.3% 17,544 are BEVs. 

That sample of current BEVs listed today is not the same as the sample will be when the 2022 vehicles are coming off lease.  The current sample is early Leafs, Ioniqs etc all with low capacity batteries and without the battery management features of today's EVs.  It will be a totally different mix of ex-fleet EV's in anther couple of years when all the TMY's, Q-Tron, iD's plus MG models etc are hitting the used market.

Hiya. And it's not only the choice of models, but also the fleet mix and age. For instance if new sales are 15% BEV (an annual figure they have only been at for about 1yr), and cars last ~15yrs, then the impact on the fleet as a whole is only about 1%, for that year. Obviously those numbers are cumulative, and gradually the fleet mix will change*, but again, the mix of BEV's in the UK will currently be weighted towards newer models. So less available today, as the SH market trails several years behind the BEV new sales ramp.



Looking at the SMMT, this seems to be reflected in the large increase in YoY BEV sales:

Used battery electric vehicle (BEV) transactions bucked the overall trend, recording their best-ever annual performance with a record 71,071 units finding new owners in 2022, a rise of 37.5%, and boosting their overall market share to 1.0%, from 0.7% in 2021.

*Edit - Just to say that I've been trying to find a figure for the percentage of the UK car fleet that are BEV's. I'm not sure it's correct, but I keep finding a number of 2-3%, but it includes PHEV's.

In March 2023 ZapMap say there are 735,000 BEVs and 480,000 PHEVs. https://www.zap-map.com/ev-market-statistics/

RAC Foundation suggest there were 33.2milion licences private cars at the end of September 2022. https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility

Assuming there has been no significant change in the total number of cars in the last 6 months, BEVs make up 2.2% of the total car fleet. 

It is interesting that BEVs account for 4.3% of the cars listed on Autotrader - possibly the older cars get the less likely they are to be sold in any given period (although that’s counter to my personal experience when I have tended to hang on to new cars longer than those bought secondhand) or perhaps the older/cheaper cars on the UK fleet are sold locally on used car lots or from small garages with no advertising or through eBay/Gumtree/Facebook Marketplace etc. I don’t know the source of the SMMT’s figures so they may or may not pick up these sales. 

Using the SMMT total for used car transactions of c6.9m it looks like 1 in 5 cars change hands every year. As there are a lot of fleet disposals in years 2-4 it does suggest that older cars change hands less frequently or the transactions don’t appear in SMMT statistics. 

As most EVs are probably less than 5 years old, one might, therefore, expect them to be over-represented on Autotrader. 

Or underrepresented as most EVs are less than three years old.

JKenH

ABrass said:

JKenH said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

But we aren’t buying them at the moment. BEV sales transactions last year (latest statistics I could find) accounted for only 1% of the used car market. https://www.smmt.co.uk/2023/02/used-car-market-down-but-evs-buck-trend/

Autotrader are currently listing 406,161 used cars for sale of which 4.3% 17,544 are BEVs. 

That sample of current BEVs listed today is not the same as the sample will be when the 2022 vehicles are coming off lease.  The current sample is early Leafs, Ioniqs etc all with low capacity batteries and without the battery management features of today's EVs.  It will be a totally different mix of ex-fleet EV's in anther couple of years when all the TMY's, Q-Tron, iD's plus MG models etc are hitting the used market.

Hiya. And it's not only the choice of models, but also the fleet mix and age. For instance if new sales are 15% BEV (an annual figure they have only been at for about 1yr), and cars last ~15yrs, then the impact on the fleet as a whole is only about 1%, for that year. Obviously those numbers are cumulative, and gradually the fleet mix will change*, but again, the mix of BEV's in the UK will currently be weighted towards newer models. So less available today, as the SH market trails several years behind the BEV new sales ramp.



Looking at the SMMT, this seems to be reflected in the large increase in YoY BEV sales:

Used battery electric vehicle (BEV) transactions bucked the overall trend, recording their best-ever annual performance with a record 71,071 units finding new owners in 2022, a rise of 37.5%, and boosting their overall market share to 1.0%, from 0.7% in 2021.

*Edit - Just to say that I've been trying to find a figure for the percentage of the UK car fleet that are BEV's. I'm not sure it's correct, but I keep finding a number of 2-3%, but it includes PHEV's.

In March 2023 ZapMap say there are 735,000 BEVs and 480,000 PHEVs. https://www.zap-map.com/ev-market-statistics/

RAC Foundation suggest there were 33.2milion licences private cars at the end of September 2022. https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility

Assuming there has been no significant change in the total number of cars in the last 6 months, BEVs make up 2.2% of the total car fleet. 

It is interesting that BEVs account for 4.3% of the cars listed on Autotrader - possibly the older cars get the less likely they are to be sold in any given period (although that’s counter to my personal experience when I have tended to hang on to new cars longer than those bought secondhand) or perhaps the older/cheaper cars on the UK fleet are sold locally on used car lots or from small garages with no advertising or through eBay/Gumtree/Facebook Marketplace etc. I don’t know the source of the SMMT’s figures so they may or may not pick up these sales. 

Using the SMMT total for used car transactions of c6.9m it looks like 1 in 5 cars change hands every year. As there are a lot of fleet disposals in years 2-4 it does suggest that older cars change hands less frequently or the transactions don’t appear in SMMT statistics. 

As most EVs are probably less than 5 years old, one might, therefore, expect them to be over-represented on Autotrader. 

Or underrepresented as most EVs are less than three years old.

Edited as on reflection my initial response came across as sarcastic when I was aiming for irony and for that I apologise. Here is my second attempt - no irony or sarcasm intended.

I was surprised at your comment but on reflection can agree that EVs are underrepresented, if you mean there are less advertised on Autotrader than ICE cars. However, when viewed in the context of the number of EVs on the road compared to the UK car fleet as a whole (which is the yardstick one might generally adopt for considering whether a subset of a population is under- or over- represented) they are over represented featuring roughly twice as many times as one might expect.

I had suggested possible reasons in the post to which you responded but on reflection consider the most likely reason there are, proportionally, more EVs advertised on Autotrader at any one time, is that they are taking twice as long to sell as ICE cars.

Grumpy_chap

Are there any contributors to this thread with experience of any EV other than Tesla, Leaf, MG?

michaels

Grumpy_chap said:

Are there any contributors to this thread with experience of any EV other than Tesla, Leaf, MG?

I was at a charge station yesterday where a family were waiting for their 5 month old £100k+ BMW iX to get flat bedded due to a charging fault.....