Civil service job cuts 3 June 2022 at 10:06PM in Employment, jobseeking & training 37 replies 3.3K views

mrkjd

Andy_L said:

What does your departments pay policy say?

It says just that. I do not expect promotion. I just want to maintain my position on the pay range to reflect my experience fairly in relation to my colleagues at the same grade.

mrkjd

Emmia said:

mrkjd said:

Andy_L said:

What does your departments pay policy say?

It says just that. I do not expect promotion. I just want to maintain my position on the pay range to reflect my experience fairly in relation to my colleagues at the same grade.

I'm afraid you're basically asking for pie in the sky with that one - where I work, you join a grade at X salary (usually the bottom of the range) and then the bottom moves up in accordance with whatever the payrise is - new starters, people who joined the grade ages ago all get paid the same.

I do understand your frustration, and it is this frustration that leads to people going for promotion when they're not ready, and to departmental churn that Ministers complain about - the "you find someone good doing something, and then you find they've gone next time you ask about it" is the type of quote you see.

The only way of going up in a range (without promotion) is to leave for a job in a department/organisation paying more at the same grade... returning to your previous department would then mean you'd effectively move up the range, as you don't get a paycut (unless you go from London to National wages)

But I'm sorry to have to point out, being in a grade for many years and having "experience" doesn't necessarily equate to you being better at the job than someone freshly promoted... I can think of a few long servers that I've come across at my grade, who are a bit useless, but get paid more than me as they've been at the grade for 15+ years (when pay did reflect time in grade better)

Knowing when your next promotion will render you less than competent (meaning you shouldn't seek it) is a difficult one to self judge.

Absolutely true that time served doesn’t equate to more competent. We all see examples of that!

annabanana82

mrkjd said:

I am a Civil Servant paid within a Pay Range consisting a minimum, threshold and upper level. My accumulated experience and performance to date have progressed me to the Threshold level.

My employer has just announced that those in my role and grade will move up to a new higher band which offers about a 10% increase across the range. Happy days, 

Except it seems that instead of a pro rata increase to keep me at my current level within the Pay Range band  (which would reflect that 10%) it seems we will just receive an increase (if any)  to the new minimum. No doubt my employer consider this a sub £200 per annum pay rise but I see it as a  10% pay cut (approx difference between threshold and minimum on old and new bands). Now a new starter will take home the same pay as someone with 10 years of performance and experience under their belt. 

This seems like discrimination to me. Whilst my take home pay may remain circa the same, my accumulated experience and past performance have been washed away as I could walk through the door tomorrow as a bright eyed bushy tailed new start at the same salary! Has anybody had something similar happen to them? 

@mrkjd I've just seen a very similar post on the intranet at work. 

Assuming you are on a very similar structure, when these pay ranges were introduced there were lots of unhappy people that found themselves on PR1 and not 2 or 3 like they felt they should be, I believe there was more pressure exerted on one function to increase which is why you may find yourself where you are. 

The function I work in Pay Range 2 doesn't kick in until my grade, which was not welcomed by the grades lower than myself. 

For several years now we've had people come in on higher starting pay, earning more than existing staff. I have had new starters come in recently earning more because it was seen as best practice to put them on 2023 salary.

I think I read that you came in 18m ago? In which case there is a good possibility you did exactly the same thing to existing staff that you feel discriminatory.

In the very small chance we work for the same department, last year's pay deal saw me get 12.8% increase, other colleagues got 1.25% so was one of the most divisive pay deals I've seen, fair is not a word that described it, but I can't see any changes coming forward. 

Bobby3210

Emmia said:

mrkjd said:

Andy_L said:

What does your departments pay policy say?

It says just that. I do not expect promotion. I just want to maintain my position on the pay range to reflect my experience fairly in relation to my colleagues at the same grade.

I'm afraid you're basically asking for pie in the sky with that one - where I work, you join a grade at X salary (usually the bottom of the range) and then the bottom moves up in accordance with whatever the payrise is - new starters, people who joined the grade ages ago all get paid the same.

I do understand your frustration, and it is this frustration that leads to people going for promotion when they're not ready, and to departmental churn that Ministers complain about - the "you find someone good doing something, and then you find they've gone next time you ask about it" is the type of quote you see.

The only way of going up in a range (without promotion) is to leave for a job in a department/organisation paying more at the same grade... returning to your previous department would then mean you'd effectively move up the range, as you don't get a paycut (unless you go from London to National wages)

But I'm sorry to have to point out, being in a grade for many years and having "experience" doesn't necessarily equate to you being better at the job than someone freshly promoted... I can think of a few long servers that I've come across at my grade, who are a bit useless, but get paid more than me as they've been at the grade for 15+ years (when pay did reflect time in grade better)

Knowing when your next promotion will render you less than competent (meaning you shouldn't seek it) is a difficult one to self judge.

Funny when people say "10 years experience" and their job has been doing the same thing for each of the 10 years - that's 1 years experience!

lincroft1710

Bobby3210 said:

Emmia said:

mrkjd said:

Andy_L said:

What does your departments pay policy say?

It says just that. I do not expect promotion. I just want to maintain my position on the pay range to reflect my experience fairly in relation to my colleagues at the same grade.

I'm afraid you're basically asking for pie in the sky with that one - where I work, you join a grade at X salary (usually the bottom of the range) and then the bottom moves up in accordance with whatever the payrise is - new starters, people who joined the grade ages ago all get paid the same.

I do understand your frustration, and it is this frustration that leads to people going for promotion when they're not ready, and to departmental churn that Ministers complain about - the "you find someone good doing something, and then you find they've gone next time you ask about it" is the type of quote you see.

The only way of going up in a range (without promotion) is to leave for a job in a department/organisation paying more at the same grade... returning to your previous department would then mean you'd effectively move up the range, as you don't get a paycut (unless you go from London to National wages)

But I'm sorry to have to point out, being in a grade for many years and having "experience" doesn't necessarily equate to you being better at the job than someone freshly promoted... I can think of a few long servers that I've come across at my grade, who are a bit useless, but get paid more than me as they've been at the grade for 15+ years (when pay did reflect time in grade better)

Knowing when your next promotion will render you less than competent (meaning you shouldn't seek it) is a difficult one to self judge.

Funny when people say "10 years experience" and their job has been doing the same thing for each of the 10 years - that's 1 years experience!

No it's still 10 years experience even if they have been doing the same repetitive task day in, day out.. 

Cromwell77

mrkjd said:

I am a Civil Servant paid within a Pay Range consisting a minimum, threshold and upper level. My accumulated experience and performance to date have progressed me to the Threshold level.

My employer has just announced that those in my role and grade will move up to a new higher band which offers about a 10% increase across the range. Happy days, 

Except it seems that instead of a pro rata increase to keep me at my current level within the Pay Range band  (which would reflect that 10%) it seems we will just receive an increase (if any)  to the new minimum. No doubt my employer consider this a sub £200 per annum pay rise but I see it as a  10% pay cut (approx difference between threshold and minimum on old and new bands). Now a new starter will take home the same pay as someone with 10 years of performance and experience under their belt. 

This seems like discrimination to me. Whilst my take home pay may remain circa the same, my accumulated experience and past performance have been washed away as I could walk through the door tomorrow as a bright eyed bushy tailed new start at the same salary! Has anybody had something similar happen to them? 

Why do you care about what someone else is paid ? I presume that you are happy with your current deal as you have been there a long time and don’t appear to be looking to leave so what a new starter is paid is completely irrelevant to your situation.

Marcon

mrkjd said:

I am a Civil Servant paid within a Pay Range consisting a minimum, threshold and upper level. My accumulated experience and performance to date have progressed me to the Threshold level.

My employer has just announced that those in my role and grade will move up to a new higher band which offers about a 10% increase across the range. Happy days, 

Except it seems that instead of a pro rata increase to keep me at my current level within the Pay Range band  (which would reflect that 10%) it seems we will just receive an increase (if any)  to the new minimum. No doubt my employer consider this a sub £200 per annum pay rise but I see it as a  10% pay cut (approx difference between threshold and minimum on old and new bands). Now a new starter will take home the same pay as someone with 10 years of performance and experience under their belt. 

This seems like discrimination to me. Whilst my take home pay may remain circa the same, my accumulated experience and past performance have been washed away as I could walk through the door tomorrow as a bright eyed bushy tailed new start at the same salary! Has anybody had something similar happen to them? 

All backbench MPs have had exactly that experience.