Civil service job cuts

mrkjd

I am a Civil Servant paid within a Pay Range consisting a minimum, threshold and upper level. My accumulated experience and performance to date have progressed me to the Threshold level.

My employer has just announced that those in my role and grade will move up to a new higher band which offers about a 10% increase across the range. Happy days, 

Except it seems that instead of a pro rata increase to keep me at my current level within the Pay Range band  (which would reflect that 10%) it seems we will just receive an increase (if any)  to the new minimum. No doubt my employer consider this a sub £200 per annum pay rise but I see it as a  10% pay cut (approx difference between threshold and minimum on old and new bands). Now a new starter will take home the same pay as someone with 10 years of performance and experience under their belt. 

This seems like discrimination to me. Whilst my take home pay may remain circa the same, my accumulated experience and past performance have been washed away as I could walk through the door tomorrow as a bright eyed bushy tailed new start at the same salary! Has anybody had something similar happen to them? 

lincroft1710

mrkjd said:

I am a Civil Servant paid within a Pay Range consisting a minimum, threshold and upper level. My accumulated experience and performance to date have progressed me to the Threshold level.

My employer has just announced that those in my role and grade will move up to a new higher band which offers about a 10% increase across the range. Happy days, 

Except it seems that instead of a pro rata increase to keep me at my current level within the Pay Range band  (which would reflect that 10%) it seems we will just receive an increase (if any)  to the new minimum. No doubt my employer consider this a sub £200 per annum pay rise but I see it as a  10% pay cut (approx difference between threshold and minimum on old and new bands). Now a new starter will take home the same pay as someone with 10 years of performance and experience under their belt. 

This seems like discrimination to me. Whilst my take home pay may remain circa the same, my accumulated experience and past performance have been washed away as I could walk through the door tomorrow as a bright eyed bushy tailed new start at the same salary! Has anybody had something similar happen to them? 

There is no legislation which states an experienced employee must be paid more than a new starter. In fact there are plenty of threads on these boards where new members of staff are paid more than existing staff.

mrkjd

lincroft1710 

There is no legislation which states an experienced employee must be paid more than a new starter. In fact there are plenty of threads on these boards where new members of staff are paid more than existing staff.

Maybe not.  But  paying more for experience based on performance assessment is rather the whole point of progressive pay ranges.

 Indeed it could be argued that the organisation promises reward for appropriate experience and performance gained. Makes me wonder if dropping an employee back to the minimum on a band without evidence of suboptimal performance or similar is legal, or perhaps a breach of contract in respect to the appraisal mechanism offered as part of the employment T&Cs. 

mrkjd

Sorry but I appear to be hijacking the OP!

I have tried to move my post to the Employment forum as a separate topic but can’t see how to do that. Happy for an Admin to move! 

lincroft1710

mrkjd said:

lincroft1710 

There is no legislation which states an experienced employee must be paid more than a new starter. In fact there are plenty of threads on these boards where new members of staff are paid more than existing staff.

Maybe not.  But  paying more for experience based on performance assessment is rather the whole point of progressive pay ranges.

 Indeed it could be argued that the organisation promises reward for appropriate experience and performance gained. Makes me wonder if dropping an employee back to the minimum on a band without evidence of suboptimal performance or similar is legal, or perhaps a breach of contract in respect to the appraisal mechanism offered as part of the employment T&Cs. 

It certainly isn't unlawful. Without knowing what your T&Cs say, impossible to say if it is a breach of contract.


As an ex Civil Servant with 35 yrs experience, pay scales, grades and responsibilities changed frequently over the years.


I would suggest you discuss this with your union rep, it is not something you can tackle on your own. 

strawb_shortcake

mrkjd said:

I am a Civil Servant paid within a Pay Range consisting a minimum, threshold and upper level. My accumulated experience and performance to date have progressed me to the Threshold level.

My employer has just announced that those in my role and grade will move up to a new higher band which offers about a 10% increase across the range. Happy days, 

Except it seems that instead of a pro rata increase to keep me at my current level within the Pay Range band  (which would reflect that 10%) it seems we will just receive an increase (if any)  to the new minimum. No doubt my employer consider this a sub £200 per annum pay rise but I see it as a  10% pay cut (approx difference between threshold and minimum on old and new bands). Now a new starter will take home the same pay as someone with 10 years of performance and experience under their belt. 

This seems like discrimination to me. Whilst my take home pay may remain circa the same, my accumulated experience and past performance have been washed away as I could walk through the door tomorrow as a bright eyed bushy tailed new start at the same salary! Has anybody had something similar happen to them? 

I'm a CS and my department bought in something similar last year. They had Yr 1 and Yr 2 pay band rates, existing staff were put on to Yr 1. New recruits and newly promoted staff from April 22 were all put on Yr 2 rates. 

As this was all signed off by the unions I'd guess it's all legal and above board, even if it doesn't feel fair.

mrkjd

lincroft1710 said:

It certainly isn't unlawful. Without knowing what your T&Cs say, impossible to say if it is a breach of contract.

I started this job 18 months ago at an agreed grade on a negotiated offer of £x which was just below threshold on the Pay Range. This was to reflect my previous experience in industry.

The terms of my contact include a policy of pay progression within the Grade Pay Range. Pay progression is a reward policy within my contract whereby increases within the Pay Range are attainable based on performance. This performance is a function of (and mapped against) my grade and a mandatory employment condition.

My employer has not changed my grade. Indeed if you move to (for example) a higher grade you would expect your position on that new grade’s pay range to reduce. They have changed my Pay Range (without any prior consultation which may be another issue).

My position therefore is that it is a breach of contract to ‘zero’ an employee from a higher to lower level across a pay range WITHIN the same job grade as my position within that range was a condition of my initial contract and offer from my employer.

Furthermore I wonder if changing my grade pay range without consultation is legal or whether it flouts any agreement between the employer and the unions.

To further muddy the waters the minimum in the new Pay Range is not the same as the one in the published Pay Award which was ratified and agreed between the employer and the unions ( the Threshold and Maximums are unchanged). It is slightly higher and a cynic may think this was to ensure all employees to threshold gained a nominal pay rise ( I would have got nothing at the old published minimum) for reasons unknown. It is unclear whether this new minimum was approved by the unions due to the lack of any prior consultation. If it wasn’t then there is a distinct possibility that there is also a breach of employer/ union agreement.

I am not in a union (even though I was a Shop Steward several decades ago). The employment world has changed a lot since then but I do still think my argument has substance. If this matter is not resolved I will pursue it within the CS process and external arbitration (would ACAS cover this?). 

I am asking the knowledgable people on this forum to debate this issue with me so I can better understand the arguments and position. 

Marcon

mrkjd said:

lincroft1710 said:

It certainly isn't unlawful. Without knowing what your T&Cs say, impossible to say if it is a breach of contract.

I started this job 18 months ago at an agreed grade on a negotiated offer of £x which was just below threshold on the Pay Range. This was to reflect my previous experience in industry.

The terms of my contact include a policy of pay progression within the Grade Pay Range. Pay progression is a reward policy within my contract whereby increases within the Pay Range are attainable based on performance. This performance is a function of (and mapped against) my grade and a mandatory employment condition.

My employer has not changed my grade. Indeed if you move to (for example) a higher grade you would expect your position on that new grade’s pay range to reduce. They have changed my Pay Range (without any prior consultation which may be another issue).

My position therefore is that it is a breach of contract to ‘zero’ an employee from a higher to lower level across a pay range WITHIN the same job grade as my position within that range was a condition of my initial contract and offer from my employer.

Furthermore I wonder if changing my grade pay range without consultation is legal or whether it flouts any agreement between the employer and the unions.

To further muddy the waters the minimum in the new Pay Range is not the same as the one in the published Pay Award which was ratified and agreed between the employer and the unions ( the Threshold and Maximums are unchanged). It is slightly higher and a cynic may think this was to ensure all employees to threshold gained a nominal pay rise ( I would have got nothing at the old published minimum) for reasons unknown. It is unclear whether this new minimum was approved by the unions due to the lack of any prior consultation. If it wasn’t then there is a distinct possibility that there is also a breach of employer/ union agreement.

I am not in a union (even though I was a Shop Steward several decades ago). The employment world has changed a lot since then but I do still think my argument has substance. If this matter is not resolved I will pursue it within the CS process and external arbitration (would ACAS cover this?). 

I am asking the knowledgable people on this forum to debate this issue with me so I can better understand the arguments and position. 

Not sure there's a debate to be had. You obviously feel 'wronged', and are clearly articulate and able to muster your thoughts, so why not just get on and pursue the CS process? Give ACAS a call before you do so and check your facts if in doubt.

lincroft1710

mrkjd said:

lincroft1710 said:

It certainly isn't unlawful. Without knowing what your T&Cs say, impossible to say if it is a breach of contract.

I started this job 18 months ago at an agreed grade on a negotiated offer of £x which was just below threshold on the Pay Range. This was to reflect my previous experience in industry.

The terms of my contact include a policy of pay progression within the Grade Pay Range. Pay progression is a reward policy within my contract whereby increases within the Pay Range are attainable based on performance. This performance is a function of (and mapped against) my grade and a mandatory employment condition.

My employer has not changed my grade. Indeed if you move to (for example) a higher grade you would expect your position on that new grade’s pay range to reduce. They have changed my Pay Range (without any prior consultation which may be another issue).

My position therefore is that it is a breach of contract to ‘zero’ an employee from a higher to lower level across a pay range WITHIN the same job grade as my position within that range was a condition of my initial contract and offer from my employer.

Furthermore I wonder if changing my grade pay range without consultation is legal or whether it flouts any agreement between the employer and the unions.

To further muddy the waters the minimum in the new Pay Range is not the same as the one in the published Pay Award which was ratified and agreed between the employer and the unions ( the Threshold and Maximums are unchanged). It is slightly higher and a cynic may think this was to ensure all employees to threshold gained a nominal pay rise ( I would have got nothing at the old published minimum) for reasons unknown. It is unclear whether this new minimum was approved by the unions due to the lack of any prior consultation. If it wasn’t then there is a distinct possibility that there is also a breach of employer/ union agreement.

I am not in a union (even though I was a Shop Steward several decades ago). The employment world has changed a lot since then but I do still think my argument has substance. If this matter is not resolved I will pursue it within the CS process and external arbitration (would ACAS cover this?). 

I am asking the knowledgable people on this forum to debate this issue with me so I can better understand the arguments and position. 

You keep asking whether this or that is "legal". There is very, very little in employment that is unlawful, let alone illegal. 


If there was a breach of employer/union  agreement, this is for union action. You are not a union member, so this aspect does not affect you. 


I remember about 35 years ago, one of the grades in my department was abolished. The staff in that grade with a promotion marking from their last annual report were promoted to the grade immediately about. Those without were demoted to the immediate grade below but kept their pay advantage until the lower grade pay caught up and then they were assimilated into the lower grade pay. I don't remember if the relevant union were in consultation, but that grade certainly disappeared with minimal if any fuss.


Having read @annabanana82's comment, this may not just be restricted to your department. You really need to do some research to find out how far reaching this change is. If any of your affected colleagues are union members ask them if there was union agreement and if not, how do they feel about what has happened. The other thing you need to check is your T&Cs, do they have any reference to the employer being able to vary the T&Cs with or without employee consultation. There is usually very little guarantee that career or pay progressions will follow the trajectory expected when accepting the job.


ACAS may be able to offer advice but apart from 2 posters who continually sing their praises, most posters on here are quite critical of them. 


Do not rush into doing anything until you are absolutely 100% certain, the employer is in the wrong. Remember that with less than 2 years service an employee can be dismissed without reason,

Andy_L

In the CS department I used to work in pay on promotion to a higher grade/band was the higher of the bottom of the pay band or 10% more than you are currently on (and then rounded up to the next spine point when we had spine points)

What does your departments pay policy say?