PIP appeal

tifo

Robbie64 said:

There is a descriptor in the WCA that covers mobilising which can score 6 points

1. Mobilising unaided by another person with or without a walking stick, manual wheelchair or other aid if such aid is normally, or could reasonably be, worn or used.

(d) Cannot either
(i) mobilise more than 200 metres on level ground without stopping in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion
or
(ii) repeatedly mobilise 200 metres within a reasonable timescale because of significant discomfort or exhaustion. 6 points

Maybe this is what tifo means?

Yes that's correct.

tifo

poppy12345 said:

Why are you still comparing both PIP and LCW? They are 2 completely different benefits. I think this is part of your problem had you concentrated on each individual appeal then the outcome may have been different.

Maybe because that's what the DWP did by bringing the PIP report into my WCA assessment and quoting from  both reports? I argued that they're different benefits with different criteria but this didn't seem to bother the DWP or tribunal. The DWP in their 2 decisions even said, and i've said this before, that the WCA is also about daily living and if i'm OK for this then i'm ok for work. So the WCA tribunal decision was partly based on my PIP medical report as well as the WCA report.

I did concentrate on each benefit to meet it's criteria. For WCA I concentrated on the ability to work, though the medical report was all about daily living, and for PIP I concentrated on how it affects my daily living.

The tribunal took the PIP medical report as gospel truth, with all it's inaccuracies which I proved wrong, and didn't believe my evidence, the judge said she didn't. That's why I knew then that the appeal will be declined. I posted that here after the appeal.

tifo

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Moving up to 200m still wouldn't have got you a PIP award as that's only 4 points for mobility.  You'd have needed either 8 points for 20-50m, or an extra 4 or more points from planning and following journeys.

However the WCA is assessed differently and may have decided you could self-propel up to 200m if you couldn't walk all of it, which is not what PIP looks at.  PIP looks at standing and moving (walking).  I do understand why you feel the PIP tribunal ought to have taken it into consideration, but AFAIK it's not actually required of them to do so.

I know it's hard not to compare the two experiences especially as you had both tribunals so close to each other, but you need to have the different assessments and descriptors clear in your head.

I should've got the points for under 20m or up to 50m. The equivalent on the WCA. They're meant to consider the pain and whether I can do this reliably and repeatedly. In truth I can't. My conditions combined easily take me over 50% of the time.

I've said before that the tribunal didn't seem to consider the affects over a 12 month period like in law. It's not clear how it's meant to be calculated or how they do it.

tifo

The PIP report was full of lies and didn't look at any of my evidence (proven), it was for the day only and not over the 12 month required period. Yet the tribunal still quoted and took the lies as truth and the judge said she didn't believe my photographs, which clearly showed my conditions and I explained how they affect me.

Some of the report was about activities I 'do' with my children, and which were not true as they were about activities a parent does with under 12s and mine are much older !!! Things like walking them somewhere and collecting them, or taking them to a children's activity etc. Totally made up.

Report was full of assumptions, such as saying I can walk 17m so can walk more than 200m, or that I can go to the shops so this is 1200m. Not when I can't in the majority of days. It was all about stuff I can do in the minority of days. Like saying I can carry 17kg so can carry 200kg .....

It was very difficult trying to convince the tribunal that the report was full of lies, even though they should be used to it, and even when I proved the wrong statements about my kids and activities. And convincing them that the activities mentioned in the report are for when i'm not so ill in the minority of days. Basically they accepted the medical report as truth despite what I proved.

poppy12345

tifo said:

poppy12345 said:

Why are you still comparing both PIP and LCW? They are 2 completely different benefits. I think this is part of your problem had you concentrated on each individual appeal then the outcome may have been different.

Maybe because that's what the DWP did by bringing the PIP report into my WCA assessment and quoting from  both reports? I argued that they're different benefits with different criteria but this didn't seem to bother the DWP or tribunal. The DWP in their 2 decisions even said, and i've said this before, that the WCA is also about daily living and if i'm OK for this then i'm ok for work. So the WCA tribunal decision was partly based on my PIP medical report as well as the WCA report.

That doesn't mean that you should have concentrated on that. Had you concentrated on where and why you think you should have scored those points for your PIP then as advised, the decision may have been completely different.

tifo said:

poppy12345 said:

Why are you still comparing both PIP and LCW? They are 2 completely different benefits. I think this is part of your problem had you concentrated on each individual appeal then the outcome may have been different.

I did concentrate on each benefit to meet it's criteria. For WCA I concentrated on the ability to work, though the medical report was all about daily living, and for PIP I concentrated on how it affects my daily living.

Yes, naturally the WCA will be about how your daily life is,  how you manage throughout each day and how your conditions affect your ability to do any type of work.

tifo said:

It was very difficult trying to convince the tribunal that the report was full of lies, even though they should be used to it,

Again, why concentrate on that? When at Tribunal stage, it doesn't matter what was said in the report because that's in the past. Doing this isn't going to get you a PIP award.

Alice_Holt

If you succeed with your UT appeal, and get another FTT hearing, I would strongly advise you to contact your local advice charity to see if they are able to assist, and help you prepare a submission for it.

From what you write "the tribunal still quoted [the assessment report] and took the lies as truth and the judge said she didn't believe my photographs, which clearly showed my conditions and I explained how they affect me", it seems the tribunal panel either didn't find your verbal evidence credible, or thought it irrelevant to the PIP descriptors.

Spoonie_Turtle

tifo said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Moving up to 200m still wouldn't have got you a PIP award as that's only 4 points for mobility.  You'd have needed either 8 points for 20-50m, or an extra 4 or more points from planning and following journeys.

However the WCA is assessed differently and may have decided you could self-propel up to 200m if you couldn't walk all of it, which is not what PIP looks at.  PIP looks at standing and moving (walking).  I do understand why you feel the PIP tribunal ought to have taken it into consideration, but AFAIK it's not actually required of them to do so.

I know it's hard not to compare the two experiences especially as you had both tribunals so close to each other, but you need to have the different assessments and descriptors clear in your head.

I should've got the points for under 20m or up to 50m. The equivalent on the WCA. They're meant to consider the pain and whether I can do this reliably and repeatedly. In truth I can't. My conditions combined easily take me over 50% of the time.

I've said before that the tribunal didn't seem to consider the affects over a 12 month period like in law. It's not clear how it's meant to be calculated or how they do it.

Which one is it?  Those are two different descriptors.  There is no WCA equivalent for less than 20m; the lowest the WCA goes is 50m.

What I meant by feeling the PIP tribunal ought to take 'it' into consideration, I meant the WCA decision that you can't mobilise (including walking) further than 200m - but even if they had, that would still not get you enough points for a PIP award.

tifo

Alice_Holt said:

If you succeed with your UT appeal, and get another FTT hearing, I would strongly advise you to contact your local advice charity to see if they are able to assist, and help you prepare a submission for it.

From what you write "the tribunal still quoted [the assessment report] and took the lies as truth and the judge said she didn't believe my photographs, which clearly showed my conditions and I explained how they affect me",

it seems the tribunal panel either didn't find your verbal evidence credible, or thought it irrelevant to the PIP descriptors.

I've received my PIP statement of reasons but haven't read it yet, should i ask for permission to appeal or should I ask an advisor to help (cab etc)?

I've read on here that not taking into account evidence from me can be a reason for a UT appeal.

"it seems the tribunal panel either didn't find your verbal evidence credible, or thought it irrelevant to the PIP descriptors". The WCA appeal seems to have accepted my photo evidence and the PIP form/decision was a part of the DWPs submission for that. I got 6 points for being able to walk up to 200 (I say not always) and 2 points for needing help otherwise. The evidence was generally the same for both appeals though with WCA I concentrated on how my conditions affect work but they just looked at daily living anyway and with the PIP appeal I concentrated on how my conditions affect my daily living.

If the PIP tribunal had also said I can walk up to 200m i'd have got 4 points and the same 2 points for needing other help i'd have 6 points, same as for WCA. However, same conditions with same evidence but 2 different opinions. If I can't walk for more than 200m for my WCA then I also can't do the same for my PIP. And the 2 points for other help.

The WCA tribunal gave me LCW as 'risk to self' if I was to work but not for related activities so no LCWRA. However, there was the excessive time from my WCA claim to the assessment which affected the assessment against me. The DWP have apologised for the delay and say it should have been re-referred in 2019. But no acknowledgment that I lost my LCWRA claim because of it.

tifo

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Which one is it?  Those are two different descriptors.  There is no WCA equivalent for less than 20m; the lowest the WCA goes is 50m.

What I meant by feeling the PIP tribunal ought to take 'it' into consideration, I meant the WCA decision that you can't mobilise (including walking) further than 200m - but even if they had, that would still not get you enough points for a PIP award.

upto 20m for PIP and upto 50m for WCA, 20m is still under 50m.

"What I meant by feeling the PIP tribunal ought to take 'it' into consideration, I meant the WCA decision that you can't mobilise (including walking) further than 200m". I agree and this is one of my points about the decision. Going the other way, the WCA tribunal fully took my PIP form and decision into account, they (and the DWP bundle) were quoting from either report. I felt it was like 2 tribunals, for WCA and PIP. I had to answer for both reports.

tifo

poppy12345 said:

tifo said:

It was very difficult trying to convince the tribunal that the report was full of lies, even though they should be used to it,

Again, why concentrate on that? When at Tribunal stage, it doesn't matter what was said in the report because that's in the past. Doing this isn't going to get you a PIP award.

I had to respond to the PIP report because the tribunal (and DWP before that) believed everything it said (full of lies) and didn't believe my spoken and written/photo evidence. The judge even said "I don't believe these photos and what you're saying". At that stage I would have expected the Dr to say "his statements match the photos" but she didn't.