UC by 2024

andrewmp

I don't wish to get political, that's not the purpose of this forum.

kaMelo

It was actually John Major who introduced student loans but we could debate the specifics on them forever, just not here.

On the point of transitional protection for students I would say paragraph 60 is quite specific that they are, why do you think otherwise? 

To enable UC claimants to retain them rather than taking a student loan is unfair on those who don't qualify as they don't get the choice.

andrewmp

kaMelo said:

It was actually John Major who introduced student loans but we could debate the specifics on them forever, just not here.

On the point of transitional protection for students I would say paragraph 60 is quite specific that they are, why do you think otherwise? 

To enable UC claimants to retain them rather than taking a student loan is unfair on those who don't qualify as they don't get the choice.

Unfair on those who don't qualify for what?

Students will lose out massively and will receive substantially less on UC as huge reductions for unearned income will occur, compared with zero deductions like on CTC.

kaMelo

Unfair on students who don't qualify for benefits.
Students who qualified for tax credits were in an advantageous position, they could take a student loan without it affecting their tax credit award leaving them much better off financially compared to students who didn't qualify for tax credits.  You disagreed with my terminology "double dipping" but that's what it is.

All students on UC will see their entitlement reduced pound for pound by the student loan available to them. They may be worse off compared to students on tax credits but they will be in exactly the same position as students who don't have any UC entitlement to begin with. As all students are therefore in the same position, is that not fair?

That is what will happen to new students at least. 
Regarding existing students on legacy benefits, I found what I think is the relevant legislation, posted a link to it above and copied the paragraph what states states quite specifically that existing students will receive transitional protection until they finish their current course. I'm happy to be corrected, either it's the wrong legislation I'm referring to or my interpretation is wrong or something else.
So with that in mind, what is it that you are reading/hearing that makes you still think existing students on tax credits will not receive transitional protection?

andrewmp

All students who qualified for tax credits, could also get a student loan.  If they didn't qualify then their circumstances meant they didn't need he money.  There is no way a family could survive on just a student loan.

I think you're misunderstanding how the transitional protection works by the way.  If it worked the way you think it works then students would be fine.

Here's an early example award letter.

https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2022-0377/6-UCPB12-11-19-Paper5-MovetoUC_UpdatePilotEvaluation_R.pdf

Notice how deductions are made after the transitional protection is applied?

calcotti

andrewmp said:
Here's an early example award letter.

https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2022-0377/6-UCPB12-11-19-Paper5-MovetoUC_UpdatePilotEvaluation_R.pdf

Notice how deductions are made after the transitional protection is applied?

But, from the earlier part of this thread dealing with capital, surely the transitional element is calculated to take account of the deductions will be made so that the final amount payable should match the amount of legacy payment payable on the day before the UC commences.

andrewmp

calcotti said:

andrewmp said:
Here's an early example award letter.

https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2022-0377/6-UCPB12-11-19-Paper5-MovetoUC_UpdatePilotEvaluation_R.pdf

Notice how deductions are made after the transitional protection is applied?

But, from the earlier part of this thread dealing with capital, surely the transitional element is calculated to take account of the deductions will be made so that the final amount payable should match the amount of legacy payment payable on the day before the UC commences.

I'm not sure, I presumed by the way the letter is worded, it's applied before.

Otherwise, how would they be able to make deductions for an increased income?

calcotti

andrewmp said:

Otherwise, how would they be able to make deductions for an increased income?

Any changes after the first day of the UC award will change the amount of UC payable.
I think from what was said earlier on the day of calculation.
UC maximum amount calculated in the normal way. Deductions applied in the normal way. That gives a UC amount. This amount is compared with the legacy benefit amount. If the legacy amount is more than the UC amount the difference is added as the transitional element.
That means that the maximum UC has now been increased by the transitional amount and when the deductions are applied the end result will match the legacy amount on that day. What happens after that will depend on what changes occur.

andrewmp

calcotti said:

andrewmp said:

Otherwise, how would they be able to make deductions for an increased income?

Any changes after the first day of the UC award will change the amount of UC payable.
I think from what was said earlier on the day of calculation.
UC maximum amount calculated in the normal way. Deductions applied in the normal way. That gives a UC amount. This amount is compared with the legacy benefit amount. If the legacy amount is more than the UC amount the difference is added as the transitional element.
That means that the maximum UC has now been increased by the transitional amount and when the deductions are applied the end result will match the legacy amount on that day. What happens after that will depend on what changes occur.

What is someone's earnings increase?  Surely they won't top up to the legacy amount then?

In this case unearned income increases from zero to maybe £1000 as it doesn't exist on TV.

calcotti

andrewmp said: What is someone's earnings increase?  Surely they won't top up to the legacy amount then?

In this case unearned income increases from zero to maybe £1000 as it doesn't exist on TV.

I'm not clear what you think the issue is.
The transitional amount is only calculated once - at the date of transfer.
Thereafter the maximum UC amount is fixed. If earnings then increase (and the total earnings are in excess of any applicable Work Allowance) obviously the UC amount payable will decrease in the normal way due to the application of the earnings deduction.