UC by 2024

andrewmp

kaMelo said:

The stated aim of managed migration is that at the point of migration to UC people are not in a worse position than they were on legacy benefits. My interpretation, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, is that the stated aim of not being worse off at the point of migration assumes people qualify for both tax credits and UC. I am not sure what happens at the point of migration to people who qualify for tax credits but don't qualify for UC, for example those with large amounts of savings or students eligible for maintenance loans.

What information are you reading that makes you so sure transitional protection will not apply to those people such as students, does the same apply to those with large savings as well?

The way transitional protection works is they add the amount extra (from legacy) on first.

If you have say £1400 of unearned income, that'll be deducted from the legacy award.

So someone who gets say £1200 tax credits per month, will have £1200 deduced.

There's a disregard of so much per month, but I'm trying to keep it simple.

Spoonie_Turtle

andrewmp said:

kaMelo said:

The stated aim of managed migration is that at the point of migration to UC people are not in a worse position than they were on legacy benefits. My interpretation, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, is that the stated aim of not being worse off at the point of migration assumes people qualify for both tax credits and UC. I am not sure what happens at the point of migration to people who qualify for tax credits but don't qualify for UC, for example those with large amounts of savings or students eligible for maintenance loans.

What information are you reading that makes you so sure transitional protection will not apply to those people such as students, does the same apply to those with large savings as well?

The way transitional protection works is they add the amount extra (from legacy) on first.

If you have say £1400 of unearned income, that'll be deducted from the legacy award.

So someone who gets say £1200 tax credits per month, will have £1200 deduced.

There's a disregard of so much per month, but I'm trying to keep it simple.

Huh?  Nobody will be getting Tax Credits at the same time as UC, a claim for UC automatically ends a TC claim.

There's also no disregard for unearned income, the work allowance is only for earned income.

andrewmp

Spoonie_Turtle said:

andrewmp said:

kaMelo said:

The stated aim of managed migration is that at the point of migration to UC people are not in a worse position than they were on legacy benefits. My interpretation, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, is that the stated aim of not being worse off at the point of migration assumes people qualify for both tax credits and UC. I am not sure what happens at the point of migration to people who qualify for tax credits but don't qualify for UC, for example those with large amounts of savings or students eligible for maintenance loans.

What information are you reading that makes you so sure transitional protection will not apply to those people such as students, does the same apply to those with large savings as well?

The way transitional protection works is they add the amount extra (from legacy) on first.

If you have say £1400 of unearned income, that'll be deducted from the legacy award.

So someone who gets say £1200 tax credits per month, will have £1200 deduced.

There's a disregard of so much per month, but I'm trying to keep it simple.

Huh?  Nobody will be getting Tax Credits at the same time as UC, a claim for UC automatically ends a TC claim.

There's also no disregard for unearned income, the work allowance is only for earned income.

I meant, if someone is currently getting - let's say - £1200 per month in tax credits.  Let's say they did a managed migration to UC and were only awarded £1000 - so were in receipt of £200 transitional protection - putting them back on £1200 per month.

Let's also say they receive £1200pm in student finance income.

Currently, on tax credits they'll receive £1200
After managed migration they'll receive £0

Additionally, had this person been working instead of being a student, the reduction would be tapered, furthermore, they would receive a work allowance of £573 which would mean a they would lost nothing of the first £573 of income.

As for the disregard, may be the wrong terminology, but I believe they 'don't include' £110 of student finance each month.

In this case, transitional protection clearly doesn't work, at least not for the stated intention. Had the stated aim of transitional protection been to 'ensure nobody is worse off at the point of transfer, unless they're a student, then it might work.'

kaMelo

What are you basing that on,  I'm happy to be corrected but I haven't found any information specifically laying out the scenario you describe with students.

andrewmp

kaMelo said:

What are you basing that on,  I'm happy to be corrected but I haven't found any information specifically laying out the scenario you describe with students.

It's based upon the way transitional protection works. I could be mistaken, but there are a load of pretty clued up people on here who are usually fairly quick to educate people when they are wrong.

I've read the regulations, and the draft award letter and I don't see how it will protect students with £9-13k unearned income.  Maybe that's by design?

Spoonie_Turtle

andrewmp said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

andrewmp said:

kaMelo said:

The stated aim of managed migration is that at the point of migration to UC people are not in a worse position than they were on legacy benefits. My interpretation, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, is that the stated aim of not being worse off at the point of migration assumes people qualify for both tax credits and UC. I am not sure what happens at the point of migration to people who qualify for tax credits but don't qualify for UC, for example those with large amounts of savings or students eligible for maintenance loans.

What information are you reading that makes you so sure transitional protection will not apply to those people such as students, does the same apply to those with large savings as well?

The way transitional protection works is they add the amount extra (from legacy) on first.

If you have say £1400 of unearned income, that'll be deducted from the legacy award.

So someone who gets say £1200 tax credits per month, will have £1200 deduced.

There's a disregard of so much per month, but I'm trying to keep it simple.

Huh?  Nobody will be getting Tax Credits at the same time as UC, a claim for UC automatically ends a TC claim.

There's also no disregard for unearned income, the work allowance is only for earned income.

I meant, if someone is currently getting - let's say - £1200 per month in tax credits.  Let's say they did a managed migration to UC and were only awarded £1000 - so were in receipt of £200 transitional protection - putting them back on £1200 per month.

Let's also say they receive £1200pm in student finance income.

Currently, on tax credits they'll receive £1200
After managed migration they'll receive £0

As for the disregard, may be the wrong terminology, but I believe they 'don't include' so much of student finance each month.

In this case, transitional protection clearly doesn't work, at least not for the stated intention. Had the stated aim of transitional protection been to 'ensure nobody is worse off at the point of transfer, unless they're a student, then it might work.'

Ah, right you were still talking about students.  Yes, understood.  I don't know how deductions for student finance are worked out, IIRC it's quite complex but yes they do disregard some.

The work allowance is nothing to do with it though, it's never applied to unearned income, only earned income from working.  That's the case for taxable benefits, pensions, etc. as well as student finance.

andrewmp

Spoonie_Turtle said:

andrewmp said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

andrewmp said:

kaMelo said:

The stated aim of managed migration is that at the point of migration to UC people are not in a worse position than they were on legacy benefits. My interpretation, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, is that the stated aim of not being worse off at the point of migration assumes people qualify for both tax credits and UC. I am not sure what happens at the point of migration to people who qualify for tax credits but don't qualify for UC, for example those with large amounts of savings or students eligible for maintenance loans.

What information are you reading that makes you so sure transitional protection will not apply to those people such as students, does the same apply to those with large savings as well?

The way transitional protection works is they add the amount extra (from legacy) on first.

If you have say £1400 of unearned income, that'll be deducted from the legacy award.

So someone who gets say £1200 tax credits per month, will have £1200 deduced.

There's a disregard of so much per month, but I'm trying to keep it simple.

Huh?  Nobody will be getting Tax Credits at the same time as UC, a claim for UC automatically ends a TC claim.

There's also no disregard for unearned income, the work allowance is only for earned income.

I meant, if someone is currently getting - let's say - £1200 per month in tax credits.  Let's say they did a managed migration to UC and were only awarded £1000 - so were in receipt of £200 transitional protection - putting them back on £1200 per month.

Let's also say they receive £1200pm in student finance income.

Currently, on tax credits they'll receive £1200
After managed migration they'll receive £0

As for the disregard, may be the wrong terminology, but I believe they 'don't include' so much of student finance each month.

In this case, transitional protection clearly doesn't work, at least not for the stated intention. Had the stated aim of transitional protection been to 'ensure nobody is worse off at the point of transfer, unless they're a student, then it might work.'

Ah, right you were still talking about students.  Yes, understood.  I don't know how deductions for student finance are worked out, IIRC it's quite complex but yes they do disregard some.

The work allowance is nothing to do with it though, it's never applied to unearned income, only earned income from working.  That's the case for taxable benefits, pensions, etc. as well as student finance.

That was my point.  You lose pound for pound except for £110pm.

kaMelo

andrewmp said:

kaMelo said:

What are you basing that on,  I'm happy to be corrected but I haven't found any information specifically laying out the scenario you describe with students.

It's based upon the way transitional protection works. I could be mistaken, but there are a load of pretty clued up people on here who are usually fairly quick to educate people when they are wrong.

I've read the regulations, and the draft award letter and I don't see how it will protect students with £9-13k unearned income.  Maybe that's by design?

On your last point, yes it probably is by design. Students who qualified for tax credits where in a privileged position compared to students who didn't qualify. In short they could double dip public funds. UC has corrected that anomaly and now all students, whether they qualify for benefits or not, are treated equally.


The reason I asked what you were basing your assumption on that students on tax credits would not receive transitional protection was because I had seen nothing to suggest that was the case so I read the legislation as best I could, (my head is now mush) and found this.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2019/1152

Protection for full-time students until course completed

60.  Where a notified person does not meet the basic condition in section 4(1)(d) of the Act (not receiving education) on the day on which all awards of any existing benefit are to terminate as a consequence of a claim for universal credit because the person is undertaking a full-time course (see regulation 12(2) and 13 of the Universal Credit Regulations F28), that condition is not to apply in relation to the notified person while they are continuing to undertake that course.

And in the explanatory notes below;

New regulation 60 provides for notified persons who are students, and entitled to existing benefits, to be exempt from the exclusion of full-time students from universal credit until they complete their course.

Now I'm not legally trained but my interpretation of that paragraph is that under managed migration, existing students will receive transitional protection, therefore the transitional element in UC, until they complete their course.

andrewmp

Students on tax credits don't double dip public funds. Student loans are repayable.

I think it would be more fair if the student had the choice of not taking the debt and retaining their UC instead. It's worth remembering that if someone was earning an amount similar to the student loan amount then they would still retain most of the UC award.

Nothing in the regulations suggests that students will receive transitional protection in the circumstances described.

You are probably right though in that it's by design, and that's their right as government.  They just need to stop saying that transitional protection will ensure that people are not worse off.

OhWow

andrewmp said:

Students on tax credits don't double dip public funds. Student loans are repayable.

I think it would be more fair if the student had the choice of not taking the debt and retaining their UC instead. It's worth remembering that if someone was earning an amount similar to the student loan amount then they would still retain most of the UC award.

Nothing in the regulations suggests that students will receive transitional protection in the circumstances described.

You are probably right though in that it's by design, and that's their right as government.  They just need to stop saying that transitional protection will ensure that people are not worse off.

The Labour party said that if you want a higher education, then you have to pay for it: they are the ones that brought in student loans and the end to free university in England and Wales, when they were in government. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3432767.stm

As said to you before on the other thread, many student loans are not repaid and the taxpayer has to pay for that loss. 

Students can work while at university and many do. They also get lots of holidays, which gives them a chance to work full time and bump up their savings for when they might want to reduce their hours.

You can get a cheaper degree in some EU countries, but they won't give you benefits either; you would still have to work.and fund your healthcare.