Replacement boiler - financial options and general advice?

Shoxt3r

Bendy_House said:

Shoxt3r said:

Bendy_House said:

A thorough report!

If you do need to replace any radiators, then please look at 'oversizing' them. Ie, choose versions with a, say, 20% greater output than current. This can be done by, say, making them double-panel, or having extra 'fins'. The reason is that the larger rads will give out the SAME heat as before, but with a lower water temp. The lower the water temp, the more efficient your new condensing boiler will be.

Everything said by the plumber is generally ok.

The ',pressure' he was referring to concerning the pipe size from the meter is the GAS pressure. A 15mm pipe for this is marginal, but probably ok for a 15kW heat only boiler like you currently have, and he's sensibly doing calcs to confirm. You can bet it would NOT be ok for a combi, tho', as these use a lot of gas when delivering DHW, so a new gas pipe WOULD Def be needed if changing to a combi. And, yes, a combi will only provide CH or DHW, and not both at the same time, but in practice this ain't a problem since the DHW takes priority, and the CH will come back on after you've had your shower or whatever.

Another way to get mains pressure hot and cold to all taps is to replace your current hot cylinder with a mains-pressurised type, typically a 'Megaflow'. If your bathroom hots and colds currently flow well, then this is unlikely to be worth it, as it will add an easy extra £1+k to the cost.

Good news about the flue being easy to sort.

Finally, yes only a pressurised/sealed system will need that discharge pipe going outside and pointing back at the wall or at the ground. That's to release excess pressure should it go wrong. And ALL new boilers will need the condensate pipe, and best kept within the house if you can.

Ah ok thanks for the tips regarding the replacement radiators if we need them...hopefully not though!

Good to know about the pressure and combi limitations - thanks for the explanation. Ah yes I think I remember "megaflow" being mentioned. Yes, to be honest we're happy with the flow of our hots and colds so no real need for the "Megaflow" option.

Thanks - again, all understood regarding the sealed system requirement.

Could you clarify what you mean by "kept within the house" please, as he stated it had to go into the soil stack?

We've had the first quote through already and it's pretty minimal (not headed or a full itemised list which seems odd) and outlines 3 options. There is no further mention of problems with using the existing 15mm piping so I'm going to feed back on this. We're going to hold off on questions like "what will the impact be while the work is being carried out" and "how many days work is this likely to be" until we receive more quotes.

Quote 1,

Supply and fit baxi boiler with vertical flue, install 6x TRV’s and powerflush system,

Total price £2480 inc VAT

Quote 2,

As per quote 1, but converting open vented system to sealed system with associated pipework,

Total price £2850 inc VAT

Quote 3,

As per quote 2, but upgrading gravity cylinder to 150liter unvented cylinder and associated pipework, and replace central heating pump

Total price £3875 inc VAT.

Next visit is tomorrow and then throughout the week so I'll report back if I have any more questions

Two ways to drain the condensate, one is externally into a soil stack or drain, and the other is internal via a waste pipe (eg existing basin/bath/shower/sink/toilet waste. Internal means it is very unlikely to freeze, so that's why it's preferred (and no hole through t'wall). If it's tricky to get it to an internal waste, however, then taking it outside is normal.

The quotes are in the expected ballpark, but I'd expect both a power-flush and a filter for these prices. 

Is it worth the extra £400 for going sealed? I don't know. Perhaps a plumber on here will advise? Did your plumber give you pros and cons for this? If not, make sure you ASK the next folk!

Pleased your existing H&C flows are fine, so no need at all to go for the costly Megaflow (unvented hot cylinder). I don't think I'd suggest a combi for you either, as there's no real advantage for you and it would be more costly.

So, a straight-forward boiler swap it is... See what the others suggest.

Ah right yes, that was mentioned as an alternative method - he then looked at our soil stack and said that this would work equally as well. He would be able to run a pipe across the loft space and then drill through the fascia and fix a higher width pipe (so that it doesn't freeze and cause a blockage) into the soil stack on the outside of the house. He looked at our bathroom setup and was unsure where the waste led to, so opted for the soil stack instead.

Yes it's not very clear from the quote but the boiler cost includes a filter, and then the powerflush would be done as well.

I found a decent list of pros/cons in a quick search - plenty of reasons to consider a sealed system. Ultimately for us though it comes down to cost and how long we are likely to be in this house to concern ourselves with it. Perhaps having a sealed system would be seen as a benefit for a prospective buyer though and add value to the house?

SEALED SYSTEMS PROS
Less rusting Less likely to suck air in to the system creating air locks and rust
If a radiator is damaged, only half a bucket of water will leak from the system.

SEALED SYSTEM CONS
When the pressure reduces the boiled will stop working. (Regular servicing is needed)
A pipe must lead to outside for the pressure relief valve to dump the excess pressure when problems occur with the boiler

OPEN VENTED SYSTEM PROS
If the system is very old and has lots of small leaks the pressure will never stop the boiler from working

If the system is very old no excess pressure will be put on pipes and radiators creating leaks.

OPEN VENTED SYSTEM CONS
Less efficient
More rust in system
More space is taken up from the tank.

Source: https://london-plumber.co.uk/faq/heating-systems-sealed-or-vented/

Bendy_House said:

Shotz, you mentioned a rad had a leak? From what part? Does it still? If not, how did it stop?

Apologies I should have been clearer - this is from a valve. We've shown and talked it over with the installer that visited and he said it's of no concern and would just be a valve change (we'll be looking to get TRVs anyway).

Shoxt3r

We had a visit from another installer today (2 more booked in for later in the week as well - I think we'll have plenty of quotes to go through! haha).

• He suggested that we have a sealed/system boiler
  
  
• As with the previous installer (probably not wishing to be rude) but when asked about the current setup he said it was fine and "if it worked". He did comment on the layout in the roof, however, and wondered about how the pressure worked.
  
  
• The new boiler would replace the frost meter and pipe stat as they are within the boiler itself?
  
  
• Water pump will also be removed
  
  
• Piping may need to be replaced depending on gas pressure - he will price this in accordingly
  
  
• Again, condense pipe will go into soil pipe via loft space
  
  
• TRVs to be put in - interestingly, he recommended that we don't place a TRV on the hallway radiator (where the thermostat is) which I've heard before. The previous installer said we shouldn't have it on the bathroom radiator as it will benefit from heat anyway
  
  
• He won't do a powerflush as it's "expensive for what it is" and "wants to help save us money" (which I didn't quite understand given our system age) but is happy to do one if we want
  
  
• Brand offered was Ideal as they're British made and still come with the benefits of other brands such as 10-year warranty. He's happy to quote on a Worcester Bosch and a Baxi (to match the previous installer) to give a guide, however.

Any thoughts on that please?

Bendy_House

Shoxt3r said:

We had a visit from another installer today (2 more booked in for later in the week as well - I think we'll have plenty of quotes to go through! haha).

• He suggested that we have a sealed/system boiler
  
  
• As with the previous installer (probably not wishing to be rude) but when asked about the current setup he said it was fine and "if it worked". He did comment on the layout in the roof, however, and wondered about how the pressure worked.
  
  
• The new boiler would replace the frost meter and pipe stat as they are within the boiler itself?
  
  
• Water pump will also be removed
  
  
• Piping may need to be replaced depending on gas pressure - he will price this in accordingly
  
  
• Again, condense pipe will go into soil pipe via loft space
  
  
• TRVs to be put in - interestingly, he recommended that we don't place a TRV on the hallway radiator (where the thermostat is) which I've heard before. The previous installer said we shouldn't have it on the bathroom radiator as it will benefit from heat anyway
  
  
• He won't do a powerflush as it's "expensive for what it is" and "wants to help save us money" (which I didn't quite understand given our system age) but is happy to do one if we want
  
  
• Brand offered was Ideal as they're British made and still come with the benefits of other brands such as 10-year warranty. He's happy to quote on a Worcester Bosch and a Baxi (to match the previous installer) to give a guide, however.

Any thoughts on that please?

Interesting little differences, and it'll also be interesting to see how his quote compares.

1) Did he say WHY a sealed system? (Which I'd prefer)

2) Fair do's about the current system - it obviously works, so that's all that matters. If you go 'sealed', then half these pipes and gubbins will be coming out anyway.

3) Yes, the new boiler will have the frostie, overrun and (likely) pump inside it, so that's all good 

4) Gas & cond. That's all fine 

5) TRVs. He's right about the one that shouldn't have a TRV - it's where the room stat goes. The other guy's comment about it being in the bathroom was for a different reason - to always allow a path for the water to flow even if all the TRVs are closed, but modern boilers should have these 'by-passes' inside them anyway, so the other guy seems a bit 'old school'.

6) As long as he follows the boiler manufacturer's guidelines on system cleanliness, and gives you the full warranty, then whether an actual PF is needed is debatable. He'll certainly fit a mag filter, and this will also help you monitor if you system is 'dirty'.

7) LOTS of companies make 15kW 'system' or 'heat only' boilers, but I don't know which are amongst the best - unless plumbers on here advise, I suggest you do your own on-line research. I doubt there's much between them.

Looking forward to hearing his quote. What's his reputation like?

Shoxt3r

Bendy_House said:

Shoxt3r said:

We had a visit from another installer today (2 more booked in for later in the week as well - I think we'll have plenty of quotes to go through! haha).

• He suggested that we have a sealed/system boiler
  
  
• As with the previous installer (probably not wishing to be rude) but when asked about the current setup he said it was fine and "if it worked". He did comment on the layout in the roof, however, and wondered about how the pressure worked.
  
  
• The new boiler would replace the frost meter and pipe stat as they are within the boiler itself?
  
  
• Water pump will also be removed
  
  
• Piping may need to be replaced depending on gas pressure - he will price this in accordingly
  
  
• Again, condense pipe will go into soil pipe via loft space
  
  
• TRVs to be put in - interestingly, he recommended that we don't place a TRV on the hallway radiator (where the thermostat is) which I've heard before. The previous installer said we shouldn't have it on the bathroom radiator as it will benefit from heat anyway
  
  
• He won't do a powerflush as it's "expensive for what it is" and "wants to help save us money" (which I didn't quite understand given our system age) but is happy to do one if we want
  
  
• Brand offered was Ideal as they're British made and still come with the benefits of other brands such as 10-year warranty. He's happy to quote on a Worcester Bosch and a Baxi (to match the previous installer) to give a guide, however.

Any thoughts on that please?

Interesting little differences, and it'll also be interesting to see how his quote compares.

1) Did he say WHY a sealed system? (Which I'd prefer)

2) Fair do's about the current system - it obviously works, so that's all that matters. If you go 'sealed', then half these pipes and gubbins will be coming out anyway.

3) Yes, the new boiler will have the frostie, overrun and (likely) pump inside it, so that's all good 

4) Gas & cond. That's all fine 

5) TRVs. He's right about the one that shouldn't have a TRV - it's where the room stat goes. The other guy's comment about it being in the bathroom was for a different reason - to always allow a path for the water to flow even if all the TRVs are closed, but modern boilers should have these 'by-passes' inside them anyway, so the other guy seems a bit 'old school'.

6) As long as he follows the boiler manufacturer's guidelines on system cleanliness, and gives you the full warranty, then whether an actual PF is needed is debatable. He'll certainly fit a mag filter, and this will also help you monitor if you system is 'dirty'.

7) LOTS of companies make 15kW 'system' or 'heat only' boilers, but I don't know which are amongst the best - unless plumbers on here advise, I suggest you do your own on-line research. I doubt there's much between them.

Looking forward to hearing his quote. What's his reputation like?

1) No, unfortunately he didn't really say why, he just focused on the benefits of it all being contained in the boiler and being able to remove the small tank.

2) Yeah agreed - all 3 that we've seen so far haven't really commented on the setup other than "it's fine".

3) Ah ok makes sense!

4) Ok great - only 2/3 have said that we may need to change the piping. The first one said it and then only quoted "associated pipework" rather than itemising it. With this quote, he's separated it out so that we're aware but only if it's actually needed depending on the pressure.

5) Yes interesting about the TRV in the bathroom. When we had British Gas trying to sell us a new boiler (we were with them for Homecare years ago when we first moved in for peace of mind until we found other providers), they also recommended excluding the hallway from the TRV setup.

6) Ok that makes sense. He hasn't included it in the quote interestingly.

7) We've done a bit of research so far and found that Ideal (the boiler that this installer recommended) have pretty poor reviews even as recently as a few days ago. This was from Trustpilot and Ideal only had 24 reviews compared with for example Worcester Bosch who have something like 29,000!

Attached is the quote with the company name omitted for privacy. Unfortunately I can't find any reviews on the website or anywhere else (the company has only been going since 2019 it looks like and he's a one-man band). Like all we have found though, they are registered on the Gas Safe Register. We were planning to just get the quotes for now and then look into reputation afterwards (we've had problems in the past even just getting a decent quote through from other trades!).

EDIT: I should point out he called to say that he was planning to provide a quote for three boiler brands but apparently his supplier has a lead-time of 90 days on Worcester and Baxi boilers - not sure if this affects other companies yet or whether this is supplier-specific so I'll question this with others. Therefore, only Ideal has been included.

Shoxt3r

Today we had a visit from another installer and he came up with the following:

1) Didn't recommend a system/sealed boiler based on the age of the radiators and general setup. This is purely to do with the pressure associated with a system boiler. As with the previous guy, he said that the risk was low but he wanted to be sure there would be no risks (a general theme with this guy though).

2) Also didn't recommend a combi boiler - a standard boiler would be best in our case. Combi wouldn't suit a family home apparently because we would regularly need hot water.

3) TRVs - not in thermostat room. However, he said that given the condition of one of the radiator's valves (the one I spoke about before) he'd be inclined to replace both ends - one with a TRV and the other end with a standard valve.

4) Recommended a change of the water pump but said it wasn't 100% necessary and could be done at a later date.

5) Again, he recommended that we change the pipework to accomodate the new boiler, even though it would be a standard one. This would depend on the pressure but he would wait until the boiler is installed and then think about routing the new pipework if the pressure turned out to be low. There is no way of telling what our pressure is like at the moment due to the fault with the gas valves. Apparently the pressure being too low would affect our new boiler warranty.

6) Regarding boiler brands he asked if we had any preference. He mentioned that he normally installs Valliant and when I said Baxi he said "I installed a Baxi boiler yesterday" which seemed a little convenient. He said Baxis are good and hold a decent warranty but Worcester only offer 5 years on theirs (I've seen 10 but maybe it depends on the boiler type). He said he would provide us with a range of boiler options within the quote.

7) Didn't recommend a Powerflush due to the age of the system - again, too much risk involved. He said that the Magnaclean filter would be sufficient and be gentler on our setup.

8) Something that hasn't been mentioned before and would have been done when we had our smart meter originally installed (we don't have it anymore due to it not working with Bulb, but the meters were upgraded as part of this as well as a new programmer (not Hive but more than does the job for our needs) for free when we were on British Gas Homecare) was that the piping connecting the boiler to the pipework uses flexible piping. He mentioned that this was a no-no these days and he would replace this. Apparently this flexible pipe allows for an easy way to fiddle with the readings?

9) Generally he seemed to want to make the job as easy as possible. General demeanor wasn't brilliant but he was friendly and helpful - didn't seem overly enthusiastic about the job, especially when we mentioned about the boiler being in the roof when he first turned up.

10) Again, mentioned that condensate pipe would go into soil stack - slight prompt needed to work out location but once outside he said how he would do it (small pipe into 1 1/2 inch then into stack) which matches up with other opinions. Again, pointed out that neighbour's was not up to scratch haha.

Overall pretty happy with everything this one said apart from his general slight lack of enthusiasm for the job. Waiting on the quote which should be within the next couple of days.

Bendy_House

I can't comment on the boiler makes, unfortunately. PLUMBERS?!!!

Yes, the gas pressure must be within specs, and I can understand they cannot test this at the mo' due to the existing fault - I understand it needs to be checked whilst the boiler is actually running.

Their reasons for not doing a PF are 'understandable', but are also effectively avoiding the issue! Old system are likely to suffer from some degree of internal corrosion of the rads - the only steel parts. This corrosion forms an iron oxide which settles out as a black sludge. Enough sludge can cause blockages. The associated issue is, tho', that the rad's skin can corrode through from the inside until it's waffer-thin (er, actually the skins are waffer-thin to begin with, so we are talking sub-waffer with corrosion...).

Two things can then happen when you swap boilers; the first is that a PF can clear away that sludge, exposing this thinned skin, which might even have pinholes in it which are kept from leaking by the coat of sludge! So, clean out the system, and expose the leaks! The other potential issue is if you do go 'sealed' system, as the pressure in this will be greater than gravity. Again, if your rads are corroded half-through, with the odd near-pinhole, then going 'sealed' could be enough to 'pop' them, and hence leak.

So, yes, having a thorough clean COULD cause rads to leak. And going 'sealed' COULD cause rads to pop. BUT, to be honest, if that happens, then you can bet it'll happen pretty soon in any case. It isn't a fault of the PF, or of changing to a sealed system, it's just that your rads are about to burst in any case, and this will just bring that time forward!

In my personal opinion, with a brand new boiler I would much rather have a clean system filled with fresh water and a nice dose of system inhibitor added which will then stop any further corrosion in its tracks. I'd monitor the rads for a few weeks and check for leaks. If none appear, I'd be quite relaxed about it. Again in my opinion, I'd rather have a sealed system even tho' it's at a higher pressure - again, I'd monitor the rads for a while, and then relax.

IF a rad leaks for either of these reasons - a PF or a change to sealed system - then it was almost certainly going to leak anyway in the nearish future. Ie, when you are not looking. With a PF and sealed system, if they are going to leak, then they'll likely do so right away - while you are watching them :-)

AND, if the worst were to happen and a rad bursts when you are out, or asleep, or on holiday, then with a sealed system only a small amount of water will come out; once the pressure drops to zero - a couple of litres? - then no more will come out. With a F&E tank, it'll keep on refilling and will leak indefinitely. But, that's what insurance is for...

I'm not saying you SHOULD go for a PF, or SHOULD go sealed, but I would personally prefer both. Your call, but you will likely be ok regardless.

One thing sticks out in the detailed quote about - why does that guy reckon you need a Grundfos condensate pump? Condensate runs out of the boiler under gravity, and provided you can drain it away like any other waste - ie sloping slightly downhill - then that's great. Sometimes, like when you install a boiler in a basement, you'll instead need to pump the cond. upwards to get to a drain, and that's when you need a pump. You'd want to avoid having one if possible - just another expense, complexity and something to go wrong. The next guy who comes out to quote, ask about the cond pipe route, and to point out how he reckons it'll go - is a pump required? If not, and you like the guy who quoted above, ask them why they included one...

Oh, and the flexi copper pipe is an easier fit, so some Centrica/GS cove was lazy :-)  I don't see it as an issue, tho', and I wouldn't expect the new guy to replace that if the actual pipe sizing - and pressure - is fine. Just leave well alone, pal...

plumb1_2

Personally someone who doesn’t offer a powerflush as standard, I’d shy away from. Just putting a bottle of F3 into a old system will do very little, ok on a totally new install 
my opinion based on your budget.
1 go for a heat only boiler,  vented system , Baxi my choice avoid ideal, Vaillant aren’t as good as they used to be.
2- powerflush
3 magnetic filter
4- new trv,s  

Shoxt3r

Bendy_House said:

I can't comment on the boiler makes, unfortunately. PLUMBERS?!!!

Yes, the gas pressure must be within specs, and I can understand they cannot test this at the mo' due to the existing fault - I understand it needs to be checked whilst the boiler is actually running.

Their reasons for not doing a PF are 'understandable', but are also effectively avoiding the issue! Old system are likely to suffer from some degree of internal corrosion of the rads - the only steel parts. This corrosion forms an iron oxide which settles out as a black sludge. Enough sludge can cause blockages. The associated issue is, tho', that the rad's skin can corrode through from the inside until it's waffer-thin (er, actually the skins are waffer-thin to begin with, so we are talking sub-waffer with corrosion...).

Two things can then happen when you swap boilers; the first is that a PF can clear away that sludge, exposing this thinned skin, which might even have pinholes in it which are kept from leaking by the coat of sludge! So, clean out the system, and expose the leaks! The other potential issue is if you do go 'sealed' system, as the pressure in this will be greater than gravity. Again, if your rads are corroded half-through, with the odd near-pinhole, then going 'sealed' could be enough to 'pop' them, and hence leak.

So, yes, having a thorough clean COULD cause rads to leak. And going 'sealed' COULD cause rads to pop. BUT, to be honest, if that happens, then you can bet it'll happen pretty soon in any case. It isn't a fault of the PF, or of changing to a sealed system, it's just that your rads are about to burst in any case, and this will just bring that time forward!

In my personal opinion, with a brand new boiler I would much rather have a clean system filled with fresh water and a nice dose of system inhibitor added which will then stop any further corrosion in its tracks. I'd monitor the rads for a few weeks and check for leaks. If none appear, I'd be quite relaxed about it. Again in my opinion, I'd rather have a sealed system even tho' it's at a higher pressure - again, I'd monitor the rads for a while, and then relax.

IF a rad leaks for either of these reasons - a PF or a change to sealed system - then it was almost certainly going to leak anyway in the nearish future. Ie, when you are not looking. With a PF and sealed system, if they are going to leak, then they'll likely do so right away - while you are watching them :-)

AND, if the worst were to happen and a rad bursts when you are out, or asleep, or on holiday, then with a sealed system only a small amount of water will come out; once the pressure drops to zero - a couple of litres? - then no more will come out. With a F&E tank, it'll keep on refilling and will leak indefinitely. But, that's what insurance is for...

I'm not saying you SHOULD go for a PF, or SHOULD go sealed, but I would personally prefer both. Your call, but you will likely be ok regardless.

One thing sticks out in the detailed quote about - why does that guy reckon you need a Grundfos condensate pump? Condensate runs out of the boiler under gravity, and provided you can drain it away like any other waste - ie sloping slightly downhill - then that's great. Sometimes, like when you install a boiler in a basement, you'll instead need to pump the cond. upwards to get to a drain, and that's when you need a pump. You'd want to avoid having one if possible - just another expense, complexity and something to go wrong. The next guy who comes out to quote, ask about the cond pipe route, and to point out how he reckons it'll go - is a pump required? If not, and you like the guy who quoted above, ask them why they included one...

Oh, and the flexi copper pipe is an easier fit, so some Centrica/GS cove was lazy :-)  I don't see it as an issue, tho', and I wouldn't expect the new guy to replace that if the actual pipe sizing - and pressure - is fine. Just leave well alone, pal...

Ok makes sense - the boiler is still working by the way so presumably they could check pressures? Interestingly, we've had a couple of installers pick fault with the report, saying that the engineer should have been able to check the pressure and other parts without any issue so we will revisit this with Your Repair who sent the engineer (we'll be looking to end the contract when we can without penalty in September when it's up for renewal).

Yes our thought is that we'd prefer to have a Powerflush to ensure we have a clean system - regardless of whether it's needed for a new boiler or not really; more for peace of mind. It makes a lot of sense that you would clean out a system and start afresh with a new boiler (the installer we had today made a point which I'll come onto in a separate post with his notes).

Like you say, it would be better to know when we can be in control of the leaks, rather than further down the line.

I'm not sure about the Grundfos condensate pump. He did mention that he was concerned about water pressure - could that be why? Also the boiler would be positioned level with the fascia where the condensate pipe would be coming out so maybe he doesn't think there will be enough pressure forcing it out - or maybe it's something related to the Ideal boiler itself? I will add it to the list of questions to ask him if we decide to go with him.

Ah ok makes sense about the flexi pipe - it's not something that any of the other installers have mentioned (we've seen 4 so far with 2 more to go). Yes I'm not sure why he felt he had grounds to replace that as well - it's been working fine and we're not about to fiddle our gas readings as he was suggesting people do with flexible pipe haha.

plumb1_2 said:

Personally someone who doesn’t offer a powerflush as standard, I’d shy away from. Just putting a bottle of F3 into a old system will do very little, ok on a totally new install 
my opinion based on your budget.
1 go for a heat only boiler,  vented system , Baxi my choice avoid ideal, Vaillant aren’t as good as they used to be.
2- powerflush
3 magnetic filter
4- new trv,s  

I think some of the concern for Powerflush (at least with the chap that said about the flexi pipe - no quote received yet) is the radiator and system age but then as Bendy_House suggested I think we'd rather know sooner rather than later about there being an issue with our rads!

Thank you for the suggestions. What would make you go with a heat-only boiler over a sealed system out of interest? Thanks forn the brand suggestions - that's pretty much on par with what I've seen of reviews for Ideal too - "avoid!". We like the last installer that quoted with the Ideal boiler included so we may ask him to re-quote but with an alternative boiler brand like Baxi (though he said there's a 90-day lead time with his supplier?).

Shoxt3r

Onto today's quote:

• Completely different direction again - he suggested he could do a like-for-like replacement and leave the open-vented system
  
  
• Fully recommended a Combi boiler with a Powerflush. When questioned about getting a sealed setup, he said "Sealed system is a Combi system" - eh?
  
  
• Reason for Powerflush - "Build up of sludge would likely void the boiler warranty and mean we pay for boiler repairs as it would be down to system" - makes sense!
  
  
• Reason for suggesting a Combi boiler - "20+ components left in the system could go wrong, so changing everything would give peace of mind". "We've had customers where they've done this and then had to replace parts for £250.00 or so".
  
  
• 7-year warranty
  
  
• Gas run from meter - keen to keep it neat as possible (additional work and materials) but was open to the idea of running it on the surface (I mainly suggested this to save money), especially when he suggested that a length of copper pipe is £15-20.00 at the moment.
  
  
• Quote will be provided for a like-for-like and a Combi setup.
  
  
• Pointed out that a full test hadn't been carried out by the test engineer for the annual service (we'll question this with Your Repair)
  
  
• Very much a "rip it all out and start again" approach. Didn't seem overly keen on the like-for-like or sealed system ("half-way house")
  
  
• General thought about current setup is that we're wasting money heating up the water in the cylinder, only to use a small percentage of it, whereas Combi would only fire up as needed and be on-demand.
  
  
• Ballpark figures (detailed quote to come) - £2,300 + VAT for like-for-like, plus £500.00 for Powerflush on top. Combi setup would be in the region of £4,500.00 but apparently we'd make our money back in no time?
  
  
• RF-based thermostat would replace our current thermostat to allow us to be portable (seems a little pointless?). Current thermostat would be disconnected and removed.
  
  
• As the thermostat would no longer be fixed, TRVs would be fitted in all rooms except the bathroom (as per the first quote we received).
  
  
• Didn't ask to see soil stack or even explain where the condense pipe would go? As he was so focused on the Combi setup maybe a condense pipe isn't needed in that case?
  
  
• Generally very pushy and sales-driven approach which I sensed as soon as he disregarded what I asked about and didn't give much time at all for questions. About what we expected as this is the first larger company we've had to do a quote (there are only 2 purely for the reason of giving a balance but not too many as we've been here before with other trades).
  
  
• His general attitude also seemed to be "this isn't very good is it, we could sort that out for you". Even commenting on how sellotape had been used on one of the flue connections (presumably from when it was first installed - I hadn't noticed it until he pointed it out)

Thoughts - does any of what he said make sense?

Bendy_House

Ok makes sense - the boiler is still working by the way so presumably they could check pressures? I'd have thought so. Interestingly, we've had a couple of installers pick fault with the report, saying that the engineer should have been able to check the pressure and other parts without any issue so we will revisit this with Your Repair who sent the engineer (we'll be looking to end the contract when we can without penalty in September when it's up for renewal).

Yes our thought is that we'd prefer to have a Powerflush to ensure we have a clean system - regardless of whether it's needed for a new boiler or not really; more for peace of mind. It makes a lot of sense that you would clean out a system and start afresh with a new boiler (the installer we had today made a point which I'll come onto in a separate post with his notes). It just doesn't make sense to fit a new boiler to a system which could have a sizeable amount of sludge in it.

Like you say, it would be better to know when we can be in control of the leaks, rather than further down the line. If the rads are ready to burst, they are ready to burst!

I'm not sure about the Grundfos condensate pump. He did mention that he was concerned about water pressure - could that be why? Also the boiler would be positioned level with the fascia where the condensate pipe would be coming out so maybe he doesn't think there will be enough pressure forcing it out - that makes sense - the cond is delivered under gravity, so needs a continuous downwards slope to the exit point. Or maybe it's something related to the Ideal boiler itself? Only if the cond outlet is somehow lower than other makes?! I doubt it. I will add it to the list of questions to ask him if we decide to go with him. Is this guy planning to fit the new boiler at a lower height than the others?

Ah ok makes sense about the flexi pipe - it's not something that any of the other installers have mentioned (we've seen 4 so far with 2 more to go). Yes I'm not sure why he felt he had grounds to replace that as well - it's been working fine and we're not about to fiddle our gas readings as he was suggesting people do with flexible pipe haha. Unless the gas pipe needs to be replaced - and chances are it won't, since a 15kW boiler is a 15kW boiler - then tell them to get their bleedin' hands off that supply pipe.