Replacement boiler - financial options and general advice?

markin

Random thought, Don't you have to claim benefits for the pension credit even if you get paid £0 right now.

Shoxt3r

Bendy_House said:

A thorough report!

If you do need to replace any radiators, then please look at 'oversizing' them. Ie, choose versions with a, say, 20% greater output than current. This can be done by, say, making them double-panel, or having extra 'fins'. The reason is that the larger rads will give out the SAME heat as before, but with a lower water temp. The lower the water temp, the more efficient your new condensing boiler will be.

Everything said by the plumber is generally ok.

The ',pressure' he was referring to concerning the pipe size from the meter is the GAS pressure. A 15mm pipe for this is marginal, but probably ok for a 15kW heat only boiler like you currently have, and he's sensibly doing calcs to confirm. You can bet it would NOT be ok for a combi, tho', as these use a lot of gas when delivering DHW, so a new gas pipe WOULD Def be needed if changing to a combi. And, yes, a combi will only provide CH or DHW, and not both at the same time, but in practice this ain't a problem since the DHW takes priority, and the CH will come back on after you've had your shower or whatever.

Another way to get mains pressure hot and cold to all taps is to replace your current hot cylinder with a mains-pressurised type, typically a 'Megaflow'. If your bathroom hots and colds currently flow well, then this is unlikely to be worth it, as it will add an easy extra £1+k to the cost.

Good news about the flue being easy to sort.

Finally, yes only a pressurised/sealed system will need that discharge pipe going outside and pointing back at the wall or at the ground. That's to release excess pressure should it go wrong. And ALL new boilers will need the condensate pipe, and best kept within the house if you can.

Ah ok thanks for the tips regarding the replacement radiators if we need them...hopefully not though!

Good to know about the pressure and combi limitations - thanks for the explanation. Ah yes I think I remember "megaflow" being mentioned. Yes, to be honest we're happy with the flow of our hots and colds so no real need for the "Megaflow" option.

Thanks - again, all understood regarding the sealed system requirement.

Could you clarify what you mean by "kept within the house" please, as he stated it had to go into the soil stack?

We've had the first quote through already and it's pretty minimal (not headed or a full itemised list which seems odd) and outlines 3 options. There is no further mention of problems with using the existing 15mm piping so I'm going to feed back on this. We're going to hold off on questions like "what will the impact be while the work is being carried out" and "how many days work is this likely to be" until we receive more quotes.

Quote 1,

Supply and fit baxi boiler with vertical flue, install 6x TRV’s and powerflush system,

Total price £2480 inc VAT

Quote 2,

As per quote 1, but converting open vented system to sealed system with associated pipework,

Total price £2850 inc VAT

Quote 3,

As per quote 2, but upgrading gravity cylinder to 150liter unvented cylinder and associated pipework, and replace central heating pump

Total price £3875 inc VAT.

Next visit is tomorrow and then throughout the week so I'll report back if I have any more questions

katejo

BUFF said:

Just how old are your radiators?
As part of the installation of the new boiler they will probably want to do a powerflush (certainly a flush) which they would probably charge several hundred pounds for - it might be worth/little more to change out some rads which would obviate a powerflush.

They will probably also recommend a magnetic filter as part of the install. Many manufacturers will require this for their free "extended" warranties (these can be up to ~12 years) - these also often require the installer to be an accredited installer of that manufacturer & annual servicing.

& you will want to ensure that they use inhibitor/protector.

I have just had a new Vaillant boiler installed this week (old one about 20 years old) and I opted for the magnetic filter. It added a further 3 years to the guarantee but only cost me about an extra £150.

Shoxt3r

markin said:

Random thought, Don't you have to claim benefits for the pension credit even if you get paid £0 right now.

I'm really not sure to be honest - where is best to find out more information on this and how does it work?

katejo said:

BUFF said:

Just how old are your radiators?
As part of the installation of the new boiler they will probably want to do a powerflush (certainly a flush) which they would probably charge several hundred pounds for - it might be worth/little more to change out some rads which would obviate a powerflush.

They will probably also recommend a magnetic filter as part of the install. Many manufacturers will require this for their free "extended" warranties (these can be up to ~12 years) - these also often require the installer to be an accredited installer of that manufacturer & annual servicing.

& you will want to ensure that they use inhibitor/protector.

I have just had a new Vaillant boiler installed this week (old one about 20 years old) and I opted for the magnetic filter. It added a further 3 years to the guarantee but only cost me about an extra £150.

Ah ok thank for this. The installer that called yesterday said that he installs Baxi but has used Valliant in the past (mainly for larger properties than our 2-bed?) and I believe found that the Vaillant boilers had a custom filter whereas the Baxi boilers come with a Magnaclean in the same box. I'm really not sure of the benefits/drawbacks from one to the other though.

Bendy_House

Shoxt3r said:

Bendy_House said:

A thorough report!

If you do need to replace any radiators, then please look at 'oversizing' them. Ie, choose versions with a, say, 20% greater output than current. This can be done by, say, making them double-panel, or having extra 'fins'. The reason is that the larger rads will give out the SAME heat as before, but with a lower water temp. The lower the water temp, the more efficient your new condensing boiler will be.

Everything said by the plumber is generally ok.

The ',pressure' he was referring to concerning the pipe size from the meter is the GAS pressure. A 15mm pipe for this is marginal, but probably ok for a 15kW heat only boiler like you currently have, and he's sensibly doing calcs to confirm. You can bet it would NOT be ok for a combi, tho', as these use a lot of gas when delivering DHW, so a new gas pipe WOULD Def be needed if changing to a combi. And, yes, a combi will only provide CH or DHW, and not both at the same time, but in practice this ain't a problem since the DHW takes priority, and the CH will come back on after you've had your shower or whatever.

Another way to get mains pressure hot and cold to all taps is to replace your current hot cylinder with a mains-pressurised type, typically a 'Megaflow'. If your bathroom hots and colds currently flow well, then this is unlikely to be worth it, as it will add an easy extra £1+k to the cost.

Good news about the flue being easy to sort.

Finally, yes only a pressurised/sealed system will need that discharge pipe going outside and pointing back at the wall or at the ground. That's to release excess pressure should it go wrong. And ALL new boilers will need the condensate pipe, and best kept within the house if you can.

Ah ok thanks for the tips regarding the replacement radiators if we need them...hopefully not though!

Good to know about the pressure and combi limitations - thanks for the explanation. Ah yes I think I remember "megaflow" being mentioned. Yes, to be honest we're happy with the flow of our hots and colds so no real need for the "Megaflow" option.

Thanks - again, all understood regarding the sealed system requirement.

Could you clarify what you mean by "kept within the house" please, as he stated it had to go into the soil stack?

We've had the first quote through already and it's pretty minimal (not headed or a full itemised list which seems odd) and outlines 3 options. There is no further mention of problems with using the existing 15mm piping so I'm going to feed back on this. We're going to hold off on questions like "what will the impact be while the work is being carried out" and "how many days work is this likely to be" until we receive more quotes.

Quote 1,

Supply and fit baxi boiler with vertical flue, install 6x TRV’s and powerflush system,

Total price £2480 inc VAT

Quote 2,

As per quote 1, but converting open vented system to sealed system with associated pipework,

Total price £2850 inc VAT

Quote 3,

As per quote 2, but upgrading gravity cylinder to 150liter unvented cylinder and associated pipework, and replace central heating pump

Total price £3875 inc VAT.

Next visit is tomorrow and then throughout the week so I'll report back if I have any more questions

Two ways to drain the condensate, one is externally into a soil stack or drain, and the other is internal via a waste pipe (eg existing basin/bath/shower/sink/toilet waste. Internal means it is very unlikely to freeze, so that's why it's preferred (and no hole through t'wall). If it's tricky to get it to an internal waste, however, then taking it outside is normal.

The quotes are in the expected ballpark, but I'd expect both a power-flush and a filter for these prices. 

Is it worth the extra £400 for going sealed? I don't know. Perhaps a plumber on here will advise? Did your plumber give you pros and cons for this? If not, make sure you ASK the next folk!

Pleased your existing H&C flows are fine, so no need at all to go for the costly Megaflow (unvented hot cylinder). I don't think I'd suggest a combi for you either, as there's no real advantage for you and it would be more costly.

So, a straight-forward boiler swap it is... See what the others suggest.

BUFF

Shoxt3r said:

System flush
This will be a powerflush carried out with a specific machine. Apparently there is no telling how our radiators will react to this type of flush but "9 times out of 10 it should be fine". If new radiators are required then this will obviously be extra labour and general cost which would have to be worked out during the job. He didn't really inspect the radiators close-up to verify this, though I did point out a radiator which had a minor leak (though it hasn't done this for a while) but this would be an easy fix with a replacement valve (we're getting TRVs quoted for 6 of the 7 radiators anyway).

Controls
The existing controls would be left as-is, as requested by us. We have an aging but simple thermostat and are happy with the basic controls which allow us to schedule or manually boost the heating and hot water as needed, which I believe I mentioned was supplied to us by British Gas when we had Homecare cover and has served us well.


 One question which does stand out is how we will be affected during the installation which I admit was something I neglected to ask. Would it be the case that everything will be shut off and we will be without water/heating for the duration?

Controls - I honestly believe that modern load/weather compensating controls properly used will pay for themselves over the expected life of the new boiler & improve comfort during that. 

Rads - more modern rads will have lower water content/generally heat up faster/have improved efficiency. If you go for ones with additional fins/panels they can release wall space (you can also go vertical) if that is something that you would like.
If you do go for this then oversizing for output as B_H suggested for futureproofing for a heat pump would be a good idea.

As to whether or not everything will be shut off & you will be without water/heating for the duration will come down to what isolation valves you have. The heating/hot water you will probably be without for the duration, the ccold water you may still have some use for some of the time.

Bendy_House

I wouldn't worry about inconvenience. The hot cylinder will remain in place, and full of hot water. Ditto the CWS. So you should have H&C pretty much without interruption.

You won't need CH during this warm spell, and if you do, then do star-jumps. 

Swapping the boiler will likely be done in one day, perhaps slightly into two.

Bendy_House

Shotz, you mentioned a rad had a leak? From what part? Does it still? If not, how did it stop?

katejo

Shoxt3r said:

markin said:

Random thought, Don't you have to claim benefits for the pension credit even if you get paid £0 right now.

I'm really not sure to be honest - where is best to find out more information on this and how does it work?

katejo said:

BUFF said:

Just how old are your radiators?
As part of the installation of the new boiler they will probably want to do a powerflush (certainly a flush) which they would probably charge several hundred pounds for - it might be worth/little more to change out some rads which would obviate a powerflush.

They will probably also recommend a magnetic filter as part of the install. Many manufacturers will require this for their free "extended" warranties (these can be up to ~12 years) - these also often require the installer to be an accredited installer of that manufacturer & annual servicing.

& you will want to ensure that they use inhibitor/protector.

I have just had a new Vaillant boiler installed this week (old one about 20 years old) and I opted for the magnetic filter. It added a further 3 years to the guarantee but only cost me about an extra £150.

Ah ok thank for this. The installer that called yesterday said that he installs Baxi but has used Valliant in the past (mainly for larger properties than our 2-bed?) and I believe found that the Vaillant boilers had a custom filter whereas the Baxi boilers come with a Magnaclean in the same box. I'm really not sure of the benefits/drawbacks from one to the other though.

My Vaillant is intended for a smaller property (2 bedroom and single bathroom). I don't know about Baxi.

BUFF

Bendy_House said:

Shotz, you mentioned a rad had a leak? From what part? Does it still? If not, how did it stop?

He said "I did point out a radiator which had a minor leak (though it hasn't done this for a while) but this would be an easy fix with a replacement valve (we're getting TRVs quoted for 6 of the 7 radiators anyway)." so it seems to be a leaking valve rather than the rad itself.