Replacement boiler - financial options and general advice?

Shoxt3r

plumb1_2 said:

A lot of large companies like Worcester wouldn’t service/repair the boiler if it’s in a loft, unless it’s boarded out and with guard rails. A nice H&S get out clause.

Ah interesting! Our loft is thankfully fully boarded from end to end - something the previous owner had already done.

Bendy_House said:

Shoxt3r said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Shoxt3r said:

Yeah that's the main aim really, spread the cost as much as possible.

I'm unsure if local businesses would offer this type of thing - lots of them are one-man band companies

What you need to remember is that anyone who offers you a finance option is supposed to be FCA registered.  The big companies like BG are registered, it's highly unlikely that your local family-run plumbing firm will be (though as has already been pointed out, that's the sort of people your really want to be doing the job).

Additionally, bear in mind that there's no such thing as free credit - someone has to pay for it somewhere along the line.  This may be made obvious (as in your car insurance, where it plainly states it costs more to pay monthly than it does if you pay in one annual premium).  If you see an offer of "interest-free" credit, I'd be willing to bet the cost of the job is inflated to cover the finance costs - no credit is truly interest-free.

A 0% purchase credit card might be an option - if you are eligible for one, and if your installer will accept credit cards (some large firms will, most "one-man-bands" won't).

Shoxt3r said:

I've mainly been looking into heating engineers - would this be covered under plumbing as well then? Sorry for being naive.

Strictly speaking, a plumber can do all the "watery" and "pipe-y" stuff, but won't do heating.  That's where a heating engineer is needed - they know boilers, and importantly are trained and licenced to deal with gas (do check that they're registered with the GSR www.gassaferegister.co.uk).  You will often find "plumbers" that are actually also GSR qualified, so they can do heating as well.

Yes, that makes sense - I think weighing up the options I'd rather go with a local firm anyway as like you say we're more likely to get a decent price. Thanks for the tips about plumbers/heating engineers - we've sourced a few companies locally who are on the Gas Safe Register (I thought Corgi registration still existed as a look-up but it seems to have long-been replaced with Gas Safe Register).

another_casualty said:

It's doubtful you'd get a grant OP 
If you are on universal credit ..and a home moaner then you would get a grant .
However, I'm not sure what companies offer this . Despite being with edf, I got the grant through eon . Cut off times also for applying etc . 

May be of help to others here..

Once you get your new boiler , it will be under guarantee for x amount of years.
My boiler being Worcester Bosch will only be annually serviced by them . It costs more , but the method in my madness is that as no other company is maintaining it , they can't blame anybody else and in theory there shouldn't be any problems in the future 🤞

just a thought ..

Good point - that's what I was coming up against when it came to looking into grants.
Thanks - I'll see what the local companies can provide and then weigh up the options regarding the boiler itself. Makes sense not to give Worcester Bosch a chance to find an escape route with their guarantee by getting them to service it!

Bendy_House said:

Wow! That's some setup!

Ok, so you are already in the loft space? Cool - that's nicely out of the way. No, they cannot 'reuse' the old flue, but I'd hope that having that hole already in the roof would make the job a lot easier - they'd likely just need a new flashing.

'Significant' savings with the new boiler? Hmm, perhaps 10% - hopefully.

The F&E tank was the traditional method of these systems, and has  - I guess - the benefit of simplicity, along with the whole system being at a low pressure. Having it 'sealed' will be at a greater pressure, but that shouldn't be an issue. See the wee tank sitting on top of that hellish construction? That's the F&E tank, and it would be great to get shot of that.

No idea what that black/white control is - any chance of a closer shot? I thought it was a frost 'stat, but that's the square white thing beside it - it'll be cold up in the loft, so that will fire up the boiler if there's any risk of frost.

I'd get an extra layer of insulation on that hot tank too, to cut down heat loses up there.

No idea what that old flexi duct was. Where does that wall go?!

That is a very amateur-looking installation... :-(

Yes it's a bit of a nightmare setup to be honest. I wasn't too impressed when I first saw it in the house viewing (about 7 years ago) but it passed the inspection and has got through every annual service like that...somehow. I presume it was either the owner themselves that did it or maybe a friend.

Thanks regarding the clarification about the flue/flashing and for the explanation about the F&E tank. I could get a closer shot but I think that was covered in a further post - a pipe stat (whatever that does...haha). There generally seems to be a lot of controls related to the boiler which I've never seen before - for example we have the pipe stat, the British Gas box as well as the timer controls which are in a bedroom cupboard next to where the water tank is situated. Presumably all of that comes in one control unit these days, like a Nest?

Would insulation be something I could easily put in myself or would you recommend I get that done at the same time as the boiler is being installed?

Yes I'm not sure either - I suspect that the old ducting just goes into that part of the wall and stops somewhere - the next stop is next door's loft so I doubt it goes there (that's a separate part of the wall, situated behind which the CO2 alarm is sitting on).

The system obviously works, but just looks very crudely laid out. Not a problem as it's out of sight...

A Nest will just take over the programming of times and temps, and not that other funny stuff. I imagine that much of it - the pipe and frost stat, for example - will be built in to the new boiler, but don't worry about that.

By extra insulation, I mean something as simple as a cylinder jacket, easy DIY.

The pipework really needs proper lagging too, since this is in a cold loft. That should be standard for an installer.

Yes it is quite a strange layout really - a lot of pipework running either side of the central part of the loft and a bit of a dodgy overflow pipe from the F&E tank (the white piping in the photos). My guess was they were trying to make the most of the loft space and perhaps was all just done on the cheap.

Ah ok then - we have a programmer which British Gas installed for us when we had a service plan with them and that works well enough for us. No real interest in getting a Nest in all honesty as we're home most of the time and would prefer to manage when we switch heating on/off ourselves manually (we often boost the heating for an hour at a time and schedule the water heating) - the BG programmer does the job really.

Ok thanks I'll have a look into getting a cylinder jacket once this is all over. Come to think of it, I'm not sure why there is a jacket around the upper water tank since it's all cold water there...

I presume an installer will do a general review of our setup and recommend lagging but I'll mention it when it comes to the visits.

One concern we do have is what installing a new boiler is going to do to our aging radiators - is it likely to have a knock-on effect? We thought about getting TRVs before this all kicked off with the boiler so that we had more control over temperatures, particularly in the 2 bedrooms. 

plumb1_2

The point of a jacket around the tank is to help to stop the water freezing, a few problems can happen if it does. 

If you stick with the set up you have now, the new boiler won’t affect your ageing rads.
You will need to fit thermostat radiator valves as per new regs

Shoxt3r

plumb1_2 said:

The point of a jacket around the tank is to help to stop the water freezing, a few problems can happen if it does. 

If you stick with the set up you have now, the new boiler won’t affect your ageing rads.
You will need to fit thermostat radiator valves as per new regs

Ok thank you for confirming that - that's as I thought to be honest.

Is there a full rundown of what may be required regulation-wise? I presume we'd have problems selling the house if it wasn't up to standard?

I've read on other forums that fitting TRVs isn't required for a boiler change but it is for complete systems. We were planning to get TRVs anyway but as I say that was before the boiler situation... I assume that looking into getting TRVs would have prompted a new boiler anyway though?

Bendy_House

As Plumb says, the black tank needs lagging to stop it from freezing. Although full of cold water, this comes in to the house at, ooh, 7?-ish degrees even in winter, and needs to be kept above freezing - residual heat from the hot cylinder and the boiler will help it with that, but the lagging is essential.
Yes, you should have TRVs on every rad except the one in the room with the BG controller/stat.
Your whole system should be flushed and cleaned as part of the new install. Sometimes this reveals issues such as partly-rusted rads, but it's best you KNOW if this is the case! 
Then there's the wee dilemma between either keeping the small F&E tank and remaining a 'vented' system, or going 'sealed'. There might be a small additional cost in changing it, as the wee tank needs by-passing (and ideally physically removing), but this is easy and should be minor. But everything else should be a 'plus', afaik; less likelihood of scale. A small reduction is waste heat from the F&E. You can 'monitor' your system for future leaks. 
One possible drawback, tho' again not a sealed-system's 'fault'; IF your rads are badly rusted inside and are weak, then the higher operating pressure of a sealed system might make them leak whereas you could 'get away' with it for longer with a vented system.
In your particular case, your system appears to have been affected by scale build up as you are in a hard water area, and this - I'm pretty sure - would be a lot less likely with a sealed system because it won't let more 'hard' water into your system without you knowing. I mean, say you had a TINY leak from a rad or pipe or even the boiler, and this had been going on for years without you knowing, then for all that time your F&E tank would have been refilling your system with more hard water, all of it releasing more scale inside your boiler, and also diluting the rust inhibitor in your system, so risking rusty rads. With a 'sealed' system, you'd immediately know if there was a leak, and could take action to sort it.

Plumb1_2, what do you think? Worth doing, or little point?

I'd just make that another Q to ask of each; "What do you think about going unvented?", and note down what each of them says. I'd also point out to each what a shocking plumbing layout you have, and you were wondering if it could have need DIYed? Again see what they say - I'd !!!!!! my ears up if any agreed, with a "Yup - we'll redo all of that properly.. !"

I'm not saying that these things should determine your ultimate choice, but they could be factors to include. Other things are; make of boiler, and general enthusiasm! (you can't help but be influenced by this! When I had GasSafes round to quote around 18 years ago, one guy just moaned about what he'd need to do, whilst literally kicking the pipes in question; "This has to go...sigh...kick...this needs to move...wheeez...kick ... ".)
Then you can report back and we can hopefully help with your choice

Also do your homework on how to finance this. But, of all loan systems, mortgages are usually the cheapest.

Shoxt3r

Bendy_House said:

As Plumb says, the black tank needs lagging to stop it from freezing. Although full of cold water, this comes in to the house at, ooh, 7?-ish degrees even in winter, and needs to be kept above freezing - residual heat from the hot cylinder and the boiler will help it with that, but the lagging is essential.
Yes, you should have TRVs on every rad except the one in the room with the BG controller/stat.
Your whole system should be flushed and cleaned as part of the new install. Sometimes this reveals issues such as partly-rusted rads, but it's best you KNOW if this is the case! 
Then there's the wee dilemma between either keeping the small F&E tank and remaining a 'vented' system, or going 'sealed'. There might be a small additional cost in changing it, as the wee tank needs by-passing (and ideally physically removing), but this is easy and should be minor. But everything else should be a 'plus', afaik; less likelihood of scale. A small reduction is waste heat from the F&E. You can 'monitor' your system for future leaks. 
One possible drawback, tho' again not a sealed-system's 'fault'; IF your rads are badly rusted inside and are weak, then the higher operating pressure of a sealed system might make them leak whereas you could 'get away' with it for longer with a vented system.
In your particular case, your system appears to have been affected by scale build up as you are in a hard water area, and this - I'm pretty sure - would be a lot less likely with a sealed system because it won't let more 'hard' water into your system without you knowing. I mean, say you had a TINY leak from a rad or pipe or even the boiler, and this had been going on for years without you knowing, then for all that time your F&E tank would have been refilling your system with more hard water, all of it releasing more scale inside your boiler, and also diluting the rust inhibitor in your system, so risking rusty rads. With a 'sealed' system, you'd immediately know if there was a leak, and could take action to sort it.

Plumb1_2, what do you think? Worth doing, or little point?

I'd just make that another Q to ask of each; "What do you think about going unvented?", and note down what each of them says. I'd also point out to each what a shocking plumbing layout you have, and you were wondering if it could have need DIYed? Again see what they say - I'd !!!!!! my ears up if any agreed, with a "Yup - we'll redo all of that properly.. !"

I'm not saying that these things should determine your ultimate choice, but they could be factors to include. Other things are; make of boiler, and general enthusiasm! (you can't help but be influenced by this! When I had GasSafes round to quote around 18 years ago, one guy just moaned about what he'd need to do, whilst literally kicking the pipes in question; "This has to go...sigh...kick...this needs to move...wheeez...kick ... ".)
Then you can report back and we can hopefully help with your choice

Also do your homework on how to finance this. But, of all loan systems, mortgages are usually the cheapest.

Ok thank you!
So just as a rundown I need to ask all installers about:

- Vented Vs sealed systems (is "unvented" different to "sealed"?)

- TRVs installation

- Generally gauge what their opinion of the existing installation is

Is there anything else you think I should cover with them?

BUFF

Just how old are your radiators?
As part of the installation of the new boiler they will probably want to do a powerflush (certainly a flush) which they would probably charge several hundred pounds for - it might be worth/little more to change out some rads which would obviate a powerflush.

They will probably also recommend a magnetic filter as part of the install. Many manufacturers will require this for their free "extended" warranties (these can be up to ~12 years) - these also often require the installer to be an accredited installer of that manufacturer & annual servicing.

& you will want to ensure that they use inhibitor/protector.

Bendy_House

Shoxt3r said:

Ok thank you!
So just as a rundown I need to ask all installers about:

- Vented Vs sealed systems (is "unvented" different to "sealed"?)

- TRVs installation

- Generally gauge what their opinion of the existing installation is

Is there anything else you think I should cover with them?

'Vented' means 'open to the air', which is what you currently have - the F&E tank is open to the air. Unvented means it's 'sealed' from the air. The F&E tank is no longer required, and the boiler will have an expansion vessel inside it, or one can be installed externally to it, but don't worry about that.

With a sealed/unvented system, you will also have a pressure gauge on the boiler with which to monitor the system water, identifying leaks or other issues.

Other Qs would be make and model of boiler, length of warranties, how thorough the system clean, and whether going 'combi' should be considered (IF this is something you are thinking of. If not, don't bother asking.)

Other than that, just get a 'feel' for what each installer is like; are they interested or bored?! Do they engage with you - do they ask you sensible questions about what's important to you? If they need prompting, then ask open Qs like "What do you think of the current setup?!"

Shoxt3r

BUFF said:

Just how old are your radiators?
As part of the installation of the new boiler they will probably want to do a powerflush (certainly a flush) which they would probably charge several hundred pounds for - it might be worth/little more to change out some rads which would obviate a powerflush.

They will probably also recommend a magnetic filter as part of the install. Many manufacturers will require this for their free "extended" warranties (these can be up to ~12 years) - these also often require the installer to be an accredited installer of that manufacturer & annual servicing.

& you will want to ensure that they use inhibitor/protector.

They're quite a mix of ages - some I believe are about 20 years old but at least 2 I think are probably 30-40 years old. These pictures may help demonstrate? We're not the original owners (the house was built in 1934) and we've only been here for about 7 years so have no idea how old the radiators are for sure unless there are telltale signs?

Yes I believe magnetic filters have come up before when we were recommended a new boiler by British Gas years ago. We've had one quote so far which I'll share a full rundown of the notes in a further post just to make things clear.

EDIT: Had problems with adding the images - should work now. The one with the middle bracket he said was probably 40 years old.

Bendy_House said:

Shoxt3r said:

Ok thank you!
So just as a rundown I need to ask all installers about:

- Vented Vs sealed systems (is "unvented" different to "sealed"?)

- TRVs installation

- Generally gauge what their opinion of the existing installation is

Is there anything else you think I should cover with them?

'Vented' means 'open to the air', which is what you currently have - the F&E tank is open to the air. Unvented means it's 'sealed' from the air. The F&E tank is no longer required, and the boiler will have an expansion vessel inside it, or one can be installed externally to it, but don't worry about that.

With a sealed/unvented system, you will also have a pressure gauge on the boiler with which to monitor the system water, identifying leaks or other issues.

Other Qs would be make and model of boiler, length of warranties, how thorough the system clean, and whether going 'combi' should be considered (IF this is something you are thinking of. If not, don't bother asking.)

Other than that, just get a 'feel' for what each installer is like; are they interested or bored?! Do they engage with you - do they ask you sensible questions about what's important to you? If they need prompting, then ask open Qs like "What do you think of the current setup?!"

Ah ok thanks, all makes sense!
Thanks for the list of questions, they came in really handy for our first visit today - actually felt like I knew what he was talking about some of the time too!

Shoxt3r

We had our first visit earlier today (4 more are lined up next week). Generally he came across well and was able to answer all of my questions in simple terms (everything related to boilers and heating systems is a complete unknown to me, as you can probably already tell).

General setup
I asked him initially what his general thought of the setup was and he said it was "fine". He will be drawing up several quotes which include vented and unvented systems as well as a combi though he generally recommended a like-for-like, vented setup so he wouldn't take away the F&E.

 The boiler will be a Baxi - exact model etc. details to be forwarded as part of the quote. This will come with a 10-year warranty and he said will be on par with a Valliant which is what he used to install but they came with a £350 premium for no real benefit. Generally he used to install a mix of Baxi and Valliant but now opts for Baxi for most scenarios. The Baxi comes with a Magnaclean filter and other filters built in, whereas the Valliant came with its own custom filter which he usually switched for a Magnaclean anyway (at least he did for his own setup at home).

Combi setup
He explained that a combi setup is mainly for those that want to save space but as we have everything within the loft space already there is really no need to go for this option. Apparently these are mainly catered for those in flats/single occupancy where we're only likely to use one tap at a time for example due to hot water only being available for one at a time (e.g. if someone was trying to use the shower and another using a hot tap elsewhere in the house). He also mentioned that we can only have either heating or water running with this setup?

TRV installation
Apparently these are recommended but not essential - "they" moan if they're not installed at the same time as a new boiler was his viewpoint because it's not the most efficient/environmentally-friendly system without them. As we were looking to get them anyway it seems the right choice to get them installed for ultimate flexibility across the rooms. One of the radiators will be left without a TRV as per his recommendation - apparently this is to keep the water flow going? Usually it's the radiator in the room where the thermostat is or the bathroom that doesn't get them fitted apparently.

Flue setup
We will be able to use the same flue setup it seems so no need to modify the roof tiles/flue setup. The existing flue is just over a metre away from the boundary wall so meets regulations.

System flush
This will be a powerflush carried out with a specific machine. Apparently there is no telling how our radiators will react to this type of flush but "9 times out of 10 it should be fine". If new radiators are required then this will obviously be extra labour and general cost which would have to be worked out during the job. He didn't really inspect the radiators close-up to verify this, though I did point out a radiator which had a minor leak (though it hasn't done this for a while) but this would be an easy fix with a replacement valve (we're getting TRVs quoted for 6 of the 7 radiators anyway).

Controls
The existing controls would be left as-is, as requested by us. We have an aging but simple thermostat and are happy with the basic controls which allow us to schedule or manually boost the heating and hot water as needed, which I believe I mentioned was supplied to us by British Gas when we had Homecare cover and has served us well.

Other concerns
It's a bit unknown at the moment whether the existing piping will be suitable enough for the pressure for the new boiler. Iron pipes run from the gas meter under the floor it would appear and then go into copper going from the ground floor all the way up to the roof and are all 15mm (it's not clear what route they take though). Apparently depending on the pressure needed for the new boiler we may need to have new piping installed so that it's direct (less bends, higher pressure) but also wider. He is going to go away and do some calculations to work out whether the new boiler will suit the existing piping and if so then all good. We have limited routing options anyway because of our solid walls, so if new piping is needed the best direction would be to go straight up from the gas meter where the current pipes are but then route it to the loft on the surface of a landing wall close to a light switch. Not ideal he said and hopefully it won't come to that.

We currently have a non-condensing boiler and the new one will be condensing. Therefore, a condensate pipe will need to be routed to our soil/waste pipe. One plan was to take it through the bathroom but apparently after looking at our soil stack at the back of the house, it can go through the fascia just below our roof guttering and then connect up that way. It will be thin pipe to start with and then a larger pipe to avoid any issues with freezing. According to him, our neighbour's condensate pipe wasn't strictly legal as it's the same size pipe which has then been put directly into the soil stack so could cause problems if the water freezes on its way out.

There is a pump situated next to the water tank which looks like it has started leaking which he said may need replacing and would be better replaced while everything is off and drained but it's entirely up to us whether we look at that now or further down the line.

Other thoughts
The flexi pipe/ducting visible just above the boiler in my earlier pictures that goes into the chimney stack is of no concern since it's all disconnected and unused. He suspected this was from the old boiler and routed to go directly into the chimney pot. Interestingly and probably unrelated but one chimney stack has been disconnected, while the other is still connected.

The gas valve seizure mentioned on the annual boiler service report is inside the boiler itself but as we're getting a new boiler anyway it's of no concern.

I can't remember what this was related to exactly but apparently one advantage of a system is that we'd have mains pressure hot water (could this be a combi setup??). At the moment we only have mains pressure cold water, and the hot water is gravity fed from the water tank.

There was also mention of us being able to do away with the large tank which sits above the green water tank, but again I can't remember what system type this point relates to.

Another point was related to an additional pipe that would be needed for certain setups so that if there is a problem, boiling water is routed either to the ground or against a wall so that it doesn't scold anyone (could this again be a combi setup?).

Quotes
The company are going to provide us with several quotes with options listed on each (e.g. the aforementioned pump for example) as well as like I say options for vented, unvented and combi setups.
 _______________

Apologies if any of this seems a bit vague - there was a lot of information to take in a short space of time and my understanding of these things is pretty poor to say the least! Hopefully the quotes that come through outline things in detail. As I say we have 4 more lined up for next week so I'll see what comes of those and report back when I know more - making sure to pose the same questions.

 One question which does stand out is how we will be affected during the installation which I admit was something I neglected to ask. Would it be the case that everything will be shut off and we will be without water/heating for the duration?

Bendy_House

A thorough report!

If you do need to replace any radiators, then please look at 'oversizing' them. Ie, choose versions with a, say, 20% greater output than current. This can be done by, say, making them double-panel, or having extra 'fins'. The reason is that the larger rads will give out the SAME heat as before, but with a lower water temp. The lower the water temp, the more efficient your new condensing boiler will be.

Everything said by the plumber is generally ok.

The ',pressure' he was referring to concerning the pipe size from the meter is the GAS pressure. A 15mm pipe for this is marginal, but probably ok for a 15kW heat only boiler like you currently have, and he's sensibly doing calcs to confirm. You can bet it would NOT be ok for a combi, tho', as these use a lot of gas when delivering DHW, so a new gas pipe WOULD Def be needed if changing to a combi. And, yes, a combi will only provide CH or DHW, and not both at the same time, but in practice this ain't a problem since the DHW takes priority, and the CH will come back on after you've had your shower or whatever.

Another way to get mains pressure hot and cold to all taps is to replace your current hot cylinder with a mains-pressurised type, typically a 'Megaflow'. If your bathroom hots and colds currently flow well, then this is unlikely to be worth it, as it will add an easy extra £1+k to the cost.

Good news about the flue being easy to sort.

Finally, yes only a pressurised/sealed system will need that discharge pipe going outside and pointing back at the wall or at the ground. That's to release excess pressure should it go wrong. And ALL new boilers will need the condensate pipe, and best kept within the house if you can.