Overstock duplicate order refund

unholyangel

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

unholyangel said:

JetpackVelociraptor said:

There seems to be clear distinction made between a link to a PDF on a website versus a PDF that's downloadable from the customers' account on said website. If it's a link to a page on the website, it's not regarded as durable means because that can be edited after the fact. If it's a PDF that is downloadable from the customers' account section of the website, i.e. they have to log in in order to download the file, and said files remain on the site for a reasonable period of time, then it is regarded as durable. At least according to this guidance published in 2013 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/429300/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf

That's provided for retailers so I would hope that it's accurate!

I'm fairly sure that providing the information only as a paper copy inside the packaging would not count. The customer hasn't been informed of their rights at the point at which they're trying to cancel, because they're trying to cancel before receipt of the goods and won't have full details of the contract until they've received them.

They seem to be misinterpreting comments made by the EU courts in a judgement about durable medium with regards to financial services - which aren't covered by CCRs and have their own regulations with slightly different requirements for information on a durable medium to that of the CCRs. 

However, the courts only said a document available via a customer's account could, in theory, meet the durable medium criteria if it meets all the requirements of a durable medium (being able to be personally addressed, stored and reproduced unedited). 

The chances of a customer account actually meeting the criteria is very low, since it will be on the retailers server.

But again, if it requires action by the consumer to actually receive it then it has only been made available rather than provided. 

And the CCRs also state the information needs to be provided before the consumer is bound by the contract. 

Thanks @unholyangel useful input as always

Out of interest what does this mean with regards to the consequence for the trader?

If the consumer highlights they aren't bound due to the lack of information can the trader then supply it and the consumer become bound? 

Depends on what information they failed to provide! For example, if they don't give that they are liable for return postage costs/the amount of the return (depending which is applicable) then the contract is to be treated as including a term that the retailer are liable. 

unholyangel

Money_Grabber13579 said:

unholyangel said:

JetpackVelociraptor said:

There seems to be clear distinction made between a link to a PDF on a website versus a PDF that's downloadable from the customers' account on said website. If it's a link to a page on the website, it's not regarded as durable means because that can be edited after the fact. If it's a PDF that is downloadable from the customers' account section of the website, i.e. they have to log in in order to download the file, and said files remain on the site for a reasonable period of time, then it is regarded as durable. At least according to this guidance published in 2013 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/429300/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf

That's provided for retailers so I would hope that it's accurate!

I'm fairly sure that providing the information only as a paper copy inside the packaging would not count. The customer hasn't been informed of their rights at the point at which they're trying to cancel, because they're trying to cancel before receipt of the goods and won't have full details of the contract until they've received them.

They seem to be misinterpreting comments made by the EU courts in a judgement about durable medium with regards to financial services - which aren't covered by CCRs and have their own regulations with slightly different requirements for information on a durable medium to that of the CCRs. 

However, the courts only said a document available via a customer's account could, in theory, meet the durable medium criteria if it meets all the requirements of a durable medium (being able to be personally addressed, stored and reproduced unedited). 

The chances of a customer account actually meeting the criteria is very low, since it will be on the retailers server.

But again, if it requires action by the consumer to actually receive it then it has only been made available rather than provided. 

And the CCRs also state the information needs to be provided before the consumer is bound by the contract. 

I’m not in any position to agree or disagree with this but playing devil’s advocate, is there a difference between having to download a pdf from an online customer account (which I think you’re saying wouldn’t be durable means) and having to download a pdf from an email? To my simple mind, both seem to require action by the customer to receive it which would suggest that neither could then be durable and given that attaching a pdf to an email seems incredibly common, that’s a lot of companies then breaking the rules…

To nutshell it, receiving an email is like having something posted through your door. You don't have to take any action to receive it. You may need to take action to read it, but not receive it.

In comparison, sending an email to them saying they need to download a pdf from an account/website is like having a "missed delivery" calling card put through your door, telling you that you need to go collect it from their depot. They've made it available to you, but it can't be said you have received it....because you haven't. 

unholyangel

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

@ktp111 Before doing anything with the bank I think you should send an email to the retailer formally cancelling your contract.

It doesn't matter if they see it or acknowledge it, as long as you have proof you sent it. AFAIK you only need to simply say: 

Dear retailer

I'm am writing to advise that I am exercising my right to cancel the contract for the following order numbers: xxx, xxx & xxx

Best regards, ktp11

The bank will prefer a chargeback as the funds will come from the seller where as S75 the bank covers the refund (although they might try to claim the money back from the retailer), if they push you down the chargeback road but it fails you'd still have S75 cover AFAIK.

As a note there maybe a question as to whether or not you are bound by the contract and are simply withdrawing your offer rather than cancelling a contract (as one hasn't been formed). 

If you withdraw your offer I don't know what happens with the goods, maybe you are an involuntary bailee and the retailer should collect the goods that you'd have a duty to take care of rather than you be bound to return as you are when cancelling. @jennie_D or @unholyangel might clarify.

Accepting or returning to sender again I'm not sure, personally I'd accept them, go down the S75 road and see if the card company want the chairs. 

Yes, involuntary bailee. 

Although worth noting (for OP's benefit( if no contract was formed/OP withdrew from contract before it was formed, then its not cancellation as you can't cancel something that never existed. 

ktp111

Just thought I'd update for others who have similar troubles: I successfully disputed the charges with the credit card company and overstock has made no effort to reclaim the two chairs. I assume that I'm now free to sell them or give them away?

GrumpyDil

ktp111 said:

Just thought I'd update for others who have similar troubles: I successfully disputed the charges with the credit card company and overstock has made no effort to reclaim the two chairs. I assume that I'm now free to sell them or give them away?

Did they process a charge back or S75 claim. Reason for asking is because if it was a charge back the company have a certain time limit to dispute it. If it was processed as a S75 claim then the credit card company paid and you should ask them what they want you to do with the chairs. 

ktp111

It was a chargeback and the time for them to dispute has ended.

Jenni_D

Thanks for coming back with an update.

All too often threads die without any closure/resolution posted.

ktp111

Ha, well, I'm feeling triumphant and wanted to crow about it!

GrumpyDil

Fair play then. Good to hear of successes 

powerful_Rogue

ktp111 said:

It was a chargeback and the time for them to dispute has ended.

• You must first send the owner of the goods written notice of:
• their obligation to collect the goods;
• details of the goods to be collected and the address at which they are held;
• your name and address;
  
  This notice may be delivered direct to the owner, left at his proper address or posted to it. The 'proper address' means:
• in the case of a limited or public limited company, the registered office or principal office;
• in any other case, the last known address of the owner.
  
  If the notice does not result in collection of the goods, you must send the owner, by recorded delivery post or registered letter:
• the same information as in the notice above, plus
• notice of your intention to sell the goods if they remain uncollected, and the date of the intended sale.
  
  The period between the issue of the second notice and the date of intended sale must be reasonably sufficient for the owner to reclaim the goods.
  
  If the owner still does not collect the goods by the date stated in your second notice, you can sell them. This must be a fair market value and not 'mates rates' to someone you know. You must give the proceeds of the sale to the owner of the goods, but you are entitled to keep any money owed to you, including the cost of the sale (e.g. advertising).