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Passport Confusion

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  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 35,780 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Savvy Shopper!
    edwin1000 said:
    mgdavid said:
    dcann31 said:
    This was a present for my wife for fighting on the frontlines in hospital during Covid so not giving up without knowing for sure we can’t travel.

    And will write to my MP also - I received a reminder to renew my driving licence recently, why not the same for passports — esp when they have taken a year off the expiry without you realising… And airlines must know this at both booking and check in…
    It's called Personal Responsibility. Just because DVLA spoonfeed us with reminders don't expect it all the time. One needs to keep oneself informed of stuff that may affect us - like travel rules. God knows there's been enough in the news about the 10-year passport validity issue for at least the last couple of years.

    Can you tell us the law as you seem to know it so well ?
    I don't think mgdavid is talking about any law.

    Personally, I keep a note of expiry dates of important documents - e.g. pasports, EHIC (now GHIC), vaccinations, driving licence, bus pass etc - and make sure I am proactive in renewing.
    That's what 'personal responsibility' is about.

    I've been aware of this for a long time - from reading about it on here & Tripadvisor, checking GOV.UK foreign travel information, discussing it with friends & family and listening to people like Simon Calder.
    Here is an article dating back to 2018 on this website:
    Revealed: Passport applicants given shorter renewals after stealth rule change (moneysavingexpert.com)

    Given Brexit, I have been keeping an eye on changes to travel to EU countries.
    And here is what is says on GOV.UK:
    Entry requirements - Greece travel advice - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

    I'm sorry to hear that some people have lost their holidays.

  • edwin1000
    edwin1000 Posts: 60 Forumite
    Second Anniversary 10 Posts
    Pollycat said:
    edwin1000 said:
    mgdavid said:
    dcann31 said:
    This was a present for my wife for fighting on the frontlines in hospital during Covid so not giving up without knowing for sure we can’t travel.

    And will write to my MP also - I received a reminder to renew my driving licence recently, why not the same for passports — esp when they have taken a year off the expiry without you realising… And airlines must know this at both booking and check in…
    It's called Personal Responsibility. Just because DVLA spoonfeed us with reminders don't expect it all the time. One needs to keep oneself informed of stuff that may affect us - like travel rules. God knows there's been enough in the news about the 10-year passport validity issue for at least the last couple of years.

    Can you tell us the law as you seem to know it so well ?
    I don't think mgdavid is talking about any law.

    Personally, I keep a note of expiry dates of important documents - e.g. pasports, EHIC (now GHIC), vaccinations, driving licence, bus pass etc - and make sure I am proactive in renewing.
    That's what 'personal responsibility' is about.

    I've been aware of this for a long time - from reading about it on here & Tripadvisor, checking GOV.UK foreign travel information, discussing it with friends & family and listening to people like Simon Calder.
    Here is an article dating back to 2018 on this website:
    Revealed: Passport applicants given shorter renewals after stealth rule change (moneysavingexpert.com)

    Given Brexit, I have been keeping an eye on changes to travel to EU countries.
    And here is what is says on GOV.UK:
    Entry requirements - Greece travel advice - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

    I'm sorry to hear that some people have lost their holidays.

    Ok then what are the actual rules. According to Ryanair there rules take president. The rules in UK and EU disagree and ordinary punters are caught in the middle. Shame on Ryanair.
  • daveyjp
    daveyjp Posts: 13,551 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Story last night on local TV.  One passenger of a family group turned away for 'out of date' as it was more than 10 years since date of issue, but before expiry date.

    Regardless of what the rules actually are Ryanair said no.

    Local travel agent advised to check passports and ensure they aren't more than 10 years since date of issue to prevent similar problems.
  • MATTR5
    MATTR5 Posts: 1,197 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    daveyjp said:
    Story last night on local TV.  One passenger of a family group turned away for 'out of date' as it was more than 10 years since date of issue, but before expiry date.

    Regardless of what the rules actually are Ryanair said no.

    Local travel agent advised to check passports and ensure they aren't more than 10 years since date of issue to prevent similar problems.
    But were they flying to the EU because if so that would be right - as the FCO site says it has to meet two rules - Your passport must meet 2 requirements. It must be:

    • less than 10 years old on the day you enter (check the ‘date of issue’), • valid for at least 3 months after the day you plan to leave (check the ‘expiry date’)

    So if on date of travel it was more than 10 years old issue then they were right to turn them away 
  • edwin1000
    edwin1000 Posts: 60 Forumite
    Second Anniversary 10 Posts
    I have had this confirmed by a Solicitor that if your passports issue date is less than 10 years old you should in EU and UK law be able to fly. One day over and you cannot pretty simple. The expire date means nothing just ignore it. Ryanair are the only company that knock 3 months off issue date. Bear in mind a £50 ticket with them can easily turn into a £500 ticket for several reasons. But that's another story.
  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 35,780 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Savvy Shopper!
    edwin1000 said:
    I have had this confirmed by a Solicitor that if your passports issue date is less than 10 years old you should in EU and UK law be able to fly. One day over and you cannot pretty simple. The expire date means nothing just ignore it. Ryanair are the only company that knock 3 months off issue date. Bear in mind a £50 ticket with them can easily turn into a £500 ticket for several reasons. But that's another story.
    It would be interesting to see if Ryanair check-in/gate staff would accept a solicitor's letter explaining the law.

    Personally, I wouldn't like to test that.

    Will look forward to Simon Calder taking action on this below...

    edwin1000 said:
    Simon Calder is talking about taking a test case to court so we can all get this sorted.I personally am £500 out of pocket. My issue date is 23rd April 2012 and Expires in January 2023 But it is fine to get in and out of UK with Jets 2 .Is anything in this country actually working anymore. Where is the law on all of this!

  • MATTR5
    MATTR5 Posts: 1,197 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    I'd like to update my comment on this too - I stated the rules above as that what we in the Industry were told was Black and white and really clear....but....even the FCO are unsure it would seem - this is the full buiy on their EU entry rules page now (Ive used the one for Spain but they are all the same I think)

    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/spain/entry-requirements

    Your passport must meet 2 requirements. It must be:

    • less than 10 years old on the day you enter (check the ‘date of issue’)
    • valid for at least 3 months after the day you plan to leave (check the ‘expiry date’)

    We are asking the European Commission to clarify the 10-year rule. Their guidance for Schengen border guards may not be updated until the spring of 2022. Until then, for some Schengen countries your passport may need to be less than 10 years old during your whole visit, and the 3 months at the end of your visit may need to be within 10 years of your passport’s issue date.

    Check both the issue date and the expiry date in your passport. If you renewed your passport early, extra months may have been added to its expiry date. This could affect the requirement for your passport to be less than 10 years old.

    So the line "your passport may need to be less than 10 years old during your whole visit" really opens a can of worms 

  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 35,780 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Savvy Shopper!
    edited 23 April 2022 at 11:24AM
    FTR, some years ago, we were caught up in a situation with Thomas Cook who said we didn't have the correct visa to travel to India and refused to check us in.
    Half a dozen were in the same boat, we'd all booked with Olympic Holidays so we were referred to the Olympic desk staffed by a woman who expected to simply give out tickets, not sort out a big problem.

    The visa rules had recently changed and I knew I was right and our documents were correct.
    It escalated up the TC ladder and I said to the supervisor "you had better be twice as sure that you're right than I am sure that I'm right, because if you deny us boarding, it won't be just the cost of the ticket we'll be claiming".

    We were allowed to check in and board - after 90 minutes to-and-fro-ing between the TC desk and Olympic desk. Luckily, we had arrived at the airport early and managed to remain calm throughout.
    We were the last 6 to check in and me & OH were upgraded to Premium (with free drinks). I like to think that was because we weren't aggressive.
    And our documents were fine when we arrived in India.

    I'm not sure I'd like to try that with Ryanair.
    And even if I did and knew I was right, I'm not sure I'd get the same result.

  • edwin1000
    edwin1000 Posts: 60 Forumite
    Second Anniversary 10 Posts
    Pollycat said:
    edwin1000 said:
    I have had this confirmed by a Solicitor that if your passports issue date is less than 10 years old you should in EU and UK law be able to fly. One day over and you cannot pretty simple. The expire date means nothing just ignore it. Ryanair are the only company that knock 3 months off issue date. Bear in mind a £50 ticket with them can easily turn into a £500 ticket for several reasons. But that's another story.
    It would be interesting to see if Ryanair check-in/gate staff would accept a solicitor's letter explaining the law.

    Personally, I wouldn't like to test that.

    Will look forward to Simon Calder taking action on this below...

    edwin1000 said:
    Simon Calder is talking about taking a test case to court so we can all get this sorted.I personally am £500 out of pocket. My issue date is 23rd April 2012 and Expires in January 2023 But it is fine to get in and out of UK with Jets 2 .Is anything in this country actually working anymore. Where is the law on all of this!

    Swissport staff seem to have glee stopping passengers board planes on our flight they turned 10 people away saying gate was closed I was at that gate and it simply was a mess with the queue caused by Swissport mixing gates up by changing them and then nobody seemed to know what was happening. One queue for 3 gates utter Shambles. In Spain everything was as smooth as clockwork. From the minute you enter a UK airport everything is a total mess.. Heaven help people at half term and Summer holiday time.
  • someone
    someone Posts: 837 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 500 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 13 November 2022 at 1:51PM
    It seems a passport 9 years 9 months or older at the points of travel are liable to be subject to arbitrary rules by the travel industry.
    If a passport is issued for exactly 10 years (as they are now) then the 9 year 9 month mark is a hard cut off for travel to the EU. You will not have enough validity to meet the second rule applied (3 months remaining). No passports issued for 10 years would be allowed to be used to enter the EU. Also after 9 years 6 months on an exact 10 year passport you need to be careful as you will need to ensure your planned exit is before the 9 year 9 month point.
    However, when a passport has been issued for more than 10 years (as was the case in the UK with many passport holders still holding these passports) then there are no hard 9 years 9 months mark. Every case is bespoke to the passport and the travel itinerary. This is where it starts to get messy in the industry. At this stage the EU are in agreement, there are two rules that apply and they are independent.

    If you are a non-EU national wishing to visit or travel within the EU, you will need a passport:

    • valid for at least 3 months after the date you intend to leave the EU country you are visiting,
    • which was issued within the previous 10 years,
    The example often used when the EU speak to the media is the same as on the German Consulate's websites https://uk.diplo.de/uk-en/02/visa/travel-after-brexit/2441830

    Practical examples:

    • A non-EU traveller arriving on 1 December 2021 for a 20 days stay in the EU with a passport issued on 2 December 2011 and valid until 2 April 2022 will be allowed entry.
    • The same person arriving on 2 December 2021 will NOT be allowed entry.
    The same example is used by the social media of the Delegation of the European Union to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and has been used by the the independent.
    However, application of the above is far from uniformed and does mean passengers with admissible passports risk been turned away at airports without valid grounds. We are nearly three years post Brexit and the fact the industry hasn't sorted this out is rather frustrating. It was an initial grey area but since resolved. Maybe there is a hope the problem with slowly go away as the passports expire.
    I'm very curious with on what the status of the test case is.


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